Episode 071 – Kyle Gorman

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– Heroes are an inspiring group of people, every one of them, from the larger than life comic book heroes you see on the big silver screen, to the everyday heroes that let us live the privileged lives we do. Every hero has a story to tell. The doctor saving lives at your local hospital, the war veteran down the street, who risked his lives for our freedom, the police officers and firefighters who risk their safety to ensure ours. Every hero is special, and every story worth telling. But there is one class of heroes that I think is often ignored. The entrepreneur, the creator, the producer, the ones who look at the problems in this world and think to themselves, “You know what, I can fix that. “I can help people, and I can make a difference.” Then they go out and do exactly that, by creating a new product, or introducing a new service. Some go on to change the world. Others make a world of difference to their customers. Welcome to the hero show. Join us as we pull back the masks of the world’s finest heropreneurs and learn the secrets to their powers, their success, and their influence. So you can use those secrets to attract more sales, make more money, and experience more freedom in your business. I’m your host, Richard Matthews, and we are on in three, two, one. Hello, and welcome back to the hero show. My name is Richard Matthews and I’m live on the line with Kyle Gorman. Kyle, are you there?

 

– I am here.

 

– Awesome, glad to have you here, Kyle. Let me do a quick introduction for you for those of our guests who have not heard of you before. So you are the founder and CEO of Gorman Recruiting, where you guys, you help build high performance teams that your companies can depend on to grow and thrive. Is that, sounds about right?

 

– That is exactly right. high performing teams. That’s the key. That sounds awesome, something I’ve been really working on developing in my business this last year. So why don’t we start off there? What is it that you guys are known for now? Why do people come to you, or come to Gorman Recruiting? And what is it that you offer the marketplace?

 

– Well, so what we do is we work with primarily small businesses, meaning they don’t have an HR person on staff. And we work with that business owner to help them find the people, that are gonna fit well in their company long term. And really what this comes down to is, the reason we’re doing what we’re doing is because small business owners, they wear a ton of hats, as you well know. But generally speaking, this is not a strength area for a lot of business owners. They’re really good in their industry. They have a lot of great industry knowledge, oftentimes great in sales. But when it comes to the employment side, recruiting, bringing in good people, onboarding good people, managing and leading them. Sometimes it’s just not a strength area for small business owners. And so that’s the niche that we are really trying to fill because we understand that, the larger companies they’ve already got resources on staff to help with that. But a small business owner when someone leaves, they put in their two week notice, that becomes crisis mode. And so if we can help relieve some of that stress, to help them go out and find the right people. But the most important thing in that really is, and this is what we are offering to our clients, one of the things that makes us very unique in what we do is we are putting a personality with a company culture. It’s not that challenging to put a job description and a resume together. That’s pretty easy, there’s software that’s been built that has taken over that, okay, we can do that. But how do we put a personality with a company culture? To find the right person that’s really going to fit well with the organization, and that’s what we strive to do. That’s what we do over and over again and help our clients find those great people that are going to be high performers for them.

 

– So I have a couple of questions, just ’cause I’m curious about this a little because it’s something I’ve been working on with my team over the last year. Because I went from being a solopreneur in 2018, to building a team in 2019. And I noticed a couple of things that were really important getting that going. One was developing a company culture was an important aspect. And then the second aspect was meticulously documenting the things that the roles are doing, the actual work that’s going on. And I’m curious if that’s something that you guys offer, or you make sure is in place ahead of time? Or how do you help companies that are struggling with those areas? Because it seemed to me at least, since I’ve gotten started building a team that they would be almost like prerequisites, or something you have to build alongside a team.

 

– Yeah, that’s a great question. Yeah. So you’re exactly right. Every company already has a culture. The question is, is that the culture that you want? Or is that just simply the culture that’s been created? But there’s a culture already there. So in a situation like yours, as a solopreneur, and then you start growing the team. One of the things you want to look at is, what is the culture that I want? And I’m going to hire people in, to fit that type of culture. Meaning, if we are if, I want to build a culture of high energy, strong customer service, great customer loyalty, then I’m going to hire people that would fit well into that. If my company already has those things, then I need to hire people that are going to fit well into the culture that I’ve already created. So it’s a little bit different when you’re coming from a solopreneur, into starting to build that team. Because then you have to define the culture that you want. The starting point to that is generally looking at your core values. What are the non negotiables, that you have as a business owner? What are the things that you make your based on? And that really helps develop the framework for the culture that you’re going to have. So again, I talk about the high energy piece. If you are going to, if you know that your personality is such that you are high energy, you love technology, you want to implement new systems and processes. Then those may be some of the core values. That’s how your your organization is built. And you can look at those core values to determine the culture that you have. And therefore the types of people that you need to bring in, that are going to fit well. And in a lot of ways, the same holds true for the roles that you’re talking about. When you’re defining out everything that’s going to be needed. One of the things that I recommend, especially if this is a new position that someone has come to us, and asked us to help fill for them. We want to recognize the actual need and not just simply what they want. And I’ll give you a great example of this, ’cause we see this quite frequently. Small business owners come to us often and say I need a sales person. And we come in and the first thing we do is a discovery process where we really start to understand the needs of the company. And more times than not, what we find is the owner’s the best salesperson that company could ever have. But they’re so bogged down in administrative tasks, and taking care of other things than the business, they can’t go out and sell, and so they think they need the sales person. But we are able to come in and understand what the actual need of the company is. Well the need may be, you need an administrative person to help you for back end support, so you can go back out and sell. So what I generally recommend in this, is to create, imagine an org chart, but that doesn’t have any names in it that just simply has responsibilities of the business. A functional org chart. What do we need to successfully provide the service to our clients that we are selling, that we are going to serve to them? And once you create that functional org chart, then you can figure out what type of person needs to fill all these roles. And in a small business, oftentimes, you may have one person that fills four or five different roles within the organization. But at least now you’ve clearly defined, what do we need to operate at the highest level? And now I can find people that can help fill those gaps for us.

 

– Yeah, so one of the things that I’ve been doing this year, it’s sort of similar to that, just really practical of, I have one of the services that we’re offering and we’re hiring people for. And this comes back to having your processes meticulously documented, is we have each step of the workflow is in our project management system. And so it’s like, we have a new client come in, and then the work that goes all the way through that so one step through the other. And to start with, I basically broke down each of the the major sections of, hey, this needs to get done, and then this needs to get done and this needs to get done. And to start with, I was doing all those things. And then I hired someone who was doing most of those things. And then I was like, now that we know what the processes are, it was like, okay, where are, more specialized skill sets allow us to do this better, cheaper, faster, and to a higher degree for our clients, so it’s like, okay, we can bring in an editor for this task here. We can bring in a writer for this task here. And now we can serve five times the clients because we have a better team in place. So I discovered that having your processes done really well. And to your point, it wasn’t exactly an org chart. It was more like a workflow. It was a workflow process, and then putting people into those roles, and then that’s been allowing us to scale. Which has been really useful for building the team And on the the culture thing, I run a dispersed team. So because we’re, I travel full time, so we don’t have a central office, and so we’ve started doing things like we communicate all day every day in a Slack channel. And we have a week in channel, and some other things, and we make sure everyone hops in and says, “Hi.” and treats it like a water cooler, and keep keeps up with everyone and what’s going on, where things are. And we’ve been trying to create sort of a camaraderie in a dispersed team, which has been working really well. But yeah, it’s an interesting thing to figure out how to build and develop a culture.

 

– Yeah, and that’s where I generally recommend, if you can go back, and you certainly are in this, I mean, you talked about it right there. Obviously, a big part of your culture and something that people have to understand is we’re remote workforce. You have to bring in someone that’s comfortable with that maybe has some experience in that space. That’s part of the a core value, that’s part of who you are, is that flexibility of being in a remote environment. And so if you go back to those core, those fundamental, that foundation of who you are, that helps you really understand the people that you need on your team.

 

– The people that will fit well with the organization. Yeah, and it’s a really, I can, I could see how it would be a very, very valuable thing for businesses who don’t know how to do that. And I’ve just been tripping and learning over how to do it myself, I got a couple of mentors who have been helped me with it. But it’s a really, really powerful thing to be able to grow and expand your team and just unlocks a lot of leverage. Where you can get a lot more done for a lot more people when you have the right team members in place.

 

– That’s right, that’s right. It really helps you scale.

 

– Absolutely. So my my next question for you is your origin story, right? We say on the show all the time, every hero has an origin story. It’s where you started to realize that you were different, that maybe you had superpowers, and maybe you could use them to help other people. So where did you start to develop or discover your value, and decide that maybe you were going to try this entrepreneur game? Is this something you’ve been doing for a long time? Or was Gorman Recruiting your first stab in the entrepreneur world?

 

– So I came from the corporate world, and oddly enough my background was not in human resources, or recruiting. My real skill, and whenever you talk about that superpower, I believe for me that’s really in management and managing personnel, and how to lead people. And so that’s really where my career had gone as I’d gone through these management stages. But then through a company that I was with, they got bought out and I saw the writing on the wall. And so initially, this all started for me with an opportunity to come help with a company that my parents had started several years ago. And my intent was not to be in small business. My intent was not to, certainly not to work with them. But they were at a point where they were needing some help to figure out what the long term plan of their business was going to be. And I was to a point that I knew I was going to be looking at a career change. And so we said, let’s take six months. And once you come in and help us for the next six months, let’s figure out who we are as a company. Let’s figure out some succession planning with are the next five years look like. And then if I don’t want to work with them, if they don’t want to work with me, we’ll part ways from there. And so that was about, gosh, eight and a half years ago. And as I was looking through that process and I was, really I was developing a five year plan for their business. And as I was developing that five year plan, one of the things that I recognized that we were good at in that business was finding uniquely skilled people that fit well with our company. That’s like, we’re really, really good at this. And the other thing that I was starting to notice, as I’d gotten then into small business, I was connecting and networking with other small business people and finding out they weren’t good at this. And so I said, well, I wonder if we could take what we’ve done and put a process around this, and then help support other businesses in doing this. And that’s ultimately what led to Gorman Recruiting. So we launched this in 2013, and have continued to grow and expand since then. And now serve clients nationwide, helping them do just that. And my real passion, I believe, and my real strength and skill is in the management side of business. The people and personnel management leadership. And the recruiting side goes hand in hand with that, because one of the things that we really, that we work with our clients to understand is, what do you do once you have this person? How do you lead them effectively and lead them properly to excel. So I can bring you a high performer but if you don’t know how to lead a high performer, it’s really not going to matter much. So one of the things that–

 

– High performers are a breed all their own.

 

– That’s right, yeah. So one of the things that we work with our clients on is, once we fill that position, we provide the management and leadership coaching on the back end, to understand what do you do with this person now that they’re here. And that’s really where my passion lies, and is in that management coaching and helping entrepreneurs and business owners know how to lead a high performing team. We’re going to help you build it. We’re gonna help you find those people. Now I’m going to work with you one on one to help you lead these people, so that you continue to have high performers long term.

 

– Absolutely. So one of the things I’m curious about, it’s something we talk about pretty regularly, is the transition for people who, like you, came from the corporate world, into becoming a business owner. And how that sort of went down for you, and if it’s something that you struggled with, or you felt you naturally fell into. Because there’s a lot of differences between, having a job, versus owning it, and all the things that go along with it and building a team with it. So how did that sort of, how was that for you?

 

– Well, it certainly was challenging, and it continues to have it’s challenges daily. It’s a funny thing. I’ve seen memes that talk about this, where you have one moment where you say, we’re going to be successful, this is the greatest thing ever. And 10 minutes later, you’d be like, this whole thing’s gonna fail, and what am I doing? And there are certainly moments like that. So, I will admit, I was in a unique and very blessed situation, in that whenever I left the corporate world, I was able to step into a salary, although, admittedly it was, there was certainly a leap of faith, I took a big pay cut, to come work with my parent’s company, and get in this small business environment with no benefits, and all the things that go along with that. But, so I took that leap, but at least I did have a safety net of a salary for a period of time. Once we launched this business, and it really took off, I still own their company, and still lead and run that. But one of the things that I’ve really had to learn is just humility, and being humble. And I think that is a great lesson for small business owners to recognize and understand and really managers and leaders of any kind. One of the things that I coach on is the need to understand that once you take on responsibility for an employee, your entire mind shift, you’re mindset has to shift, because it’s no longer about you. Your number one priority has to be about them. So what that means is, if it comes payroll time, and there’s not enough money in the bank account, you are the one that’s not going to get paid. If someone needs to take some time off, and they need to, just kind of recoup and decompress. They’re the ones that need to take that time before you do. And so there, and it’s hard I think a lot of times for business owners, because there is a certain arrogance and ego that generally comes along with being a business owner. You feel like you can do this great, amazing thing. And so it can be challenging to then step back and say, I now am second chair. There’s a great book about leaders eat last. And it talks to that same concept that you’ve got to understand, it’s not about you anymore. You have to have a very selfless approach when you take on that type of responsibility. And that’s something that was definitely something that I had to learn and has been invaluable to me since I’ve learned that, and taken on that that approach. But you have to take on a very selfless approach whenever you decide to make that shift and say, I’m going to lead and run this business. But at the same time, my number one priority isn’t about me. My number one priority is those that are around me.

 

– Yeah, yeah absolutely. And I know that’s one of the things that, I wouldn’t say that it was really difficult for me, but it was scary, if that makes sense. Where one of the things that I was like, because I went into it with that mentality, is like, if I hire someone, my kids will starve before theirs will.

 

– Yeah, that’d exactly, that’s hard.

 

– That’s a hard, it’s a hard decision to make, right? And you realize it’s like, we have to make our sales and make our numbers and do all the things, because payroll is the biggest thing ever. I am currently in the process of putting away into our payroll account like six months worth of payroll stuff. So even if everything else goes to shit,

 

– Yeah, you’ve got that little buffer, yeah,

 

– We could still make payroll every month. It’s an interesting feeling because, I actually I learned that lesson, and the reason I came to it with that mentality is because an old boss of mine, back when I was working in the corporate world. I had a C level marketing position, and I reported directly to the president of a company that had about 150 employees. And he was mentoring me on a lot of things, on running a company, which was really, really cool. But the thing that he stressed out about the most. When we were having problems, and when we’re talking about marketing or like how we were growing, was like, we have 150 families that we have to feed. And how important that was to him. I was like, you see a lot of businesses, the customer is the number one thing, and they talk a lot about that. But when you really get in and talk to a CEO who understands how they’re running their business, customers are second to their employees.

 

– It has to be, that’s exactly right, yeah.

 

– And so it was really fascinating to learn that lesson as close as we did, and that company actually ended up going through a bankruptcy, and I had to, we spent a couple of years working through a marketing plan to restructure and rebuild that business. And they actually we’re able to, reconnect their business with the marketing plan and were able to get the stuff out of bankruptcy. But it was one of the biggest ones in my life, was like, hey, there’s 100 families that still have their jobs, because we were able to turn around their marketing plan. So I feel that really deeply.

 

– Yeah, when I think one of the biggest things that I think in the difference between the corporate world and small business ownership, especially outside of being a solopreneur. But you know, whenever you have a team of people that are working with you, is in the corporate world, it’s you impress, you succeed, you impress, you succeed, you impress, you succeed. Whenever you run a business with a team, it’s you serve, you succeed, you serve, you succeed. And there’s a huge shift that has to come with that, to take on that mentality. Because previously, it’s all about, I’m going to show you how much I can hustle, how much I can do, how much I can accomplish. And when you have that team of people working for you, it’s about helping them excel, helping them succeed, helping them do great things. And giving up control, knowing someone may not do something quite the same way you would. They may not even do it as well as you would. But it’s okay, I’ve got to be able to relinquish that control for us as a company, for the greater good. To Excel, to thrive, to be better.

 

– It’s actually the primary reason what kept me from hiring people for so long, was that exact thing, is like, I had this conversation going in my head, it’s like, I have this thing I need to get done. And my question was, should I do it myself, or should I hire someone? And, when you ask yourself that question, the answer is always, I should do it myself. Because it’s better, cheaper, faster. It was the wrong question. So I finally just had to bite the bullet. I was like, I hired someone. And now it was like, I have someone’s plate that I need to fill with work. And now the question is, what can I put on their plate, that’s really going to help us grow the business? And that’s how much better question to be asking yourself.

 

– That’s right. Amazingly, they may do it better than you sometimes. That’s the thing that we have to remember.

 

– That’s one of the things that I’ve discovered.

 

– It may be better. Discover about half the things I put on my first employees plate, he would do better than I ever did. And I was like, man, I gotta swallow that pride pill a little bit.

 

– That’s right. Yeah.

 

– And to the point of your culture too, when you talk about serving growth. I started with one employee and really started working on, and inculcating the culture that I wanted with just him. And a lot of that idea of service and what we stand for and everything. And one of the first things that I did when we were bringing on more people I was like, “Hey, this is the stuff you’re in charge of. “We’re going to need more people to grow this thing. “I want you to be in charge of hiring those people. “I want to hire them with you “and show you how were doing it, so you can grow the team.” We’ve got two other people on under his team now. For the whole thing that he’s in charge of. And to see the way that he’s interacted with the people that are on his team. It’s a mirror of what I did with him. All the way down to like, this Christmas, he sent both of the other staff members on his team, he sent them Christmas gifts. And things like that, you know, just thank you for your working and everything that they’ve been doing. And I was like, it very much mirrored the way that I had worked with and treated him. And so the culture that you set up and present and do with your team is going to, I don’t know, at least in my experience, that it filters down into the rest of your organization.

 

– It absolutely will. So I call that the managers mirror. And that’s something that I coach as part of the foundation. So it’s funny that you you bring these up. So there’s three parts to the foundation of management. One is being selfless. But another one is the managers mirror. And in that managers mirror, that’s exactly what I talk about, is if you look at your company culture, or you look at the employees around you. And there’s things about the way that they operate that you don’t like, the first place to look at is in the mirror. Because people will always reflect the leader. And so if, the the example that I often give is, if you feel like your team’s not very responsive, and they don’t provide great customer service, well then, the first thing you need to look at is, what type of service do you provide, and how responsive are you? Because chances are, you are not, if they are not. And so you are exactly right, your team is going to reflect the leader. And so if these are things that you’re doing, because oftentimes, that’s the only way they know then to lead, is they know this is how you do it. Well, if you do it as a dictator, and you do it very strict, and just by the book, and this is how it is. That’s how they’re going to be, and now that’s what your company culture is. If you do it in a more loving, gentle, to the point, don’t get me wrong, I’m very much about being direct with how things need to get done, but you can do that in a way that still loving towards someone, and helps them understand I care about you, I care about your success, but we do have a job to get done. That’s the culture that you’re going to, that’s the culture you’re going to create. And so you’re exactly right. That there’s a reflection that is had there based on the things that you do, and therefore they’re going to do. And so imagine what that happens, when the company grows even more. Now you’ve got 30 employees. Well, if they are reflecting the same things that you’ve created all along, that’s the culture that’s in your business long term, because that’s part of who you are. They’re always going to reflect that leader.

 

– Yeah, and I know, one of the things that you talked about, you got to get the job done. One of the things that I started doing really early on was, I want to hear about all the little failures, all the little things that are wrong, and bring them all to me. And it’s been really interesting because, when something big goes wrong, they don’t, it doesn’t get hidden. It’s like because they’ve realized now, I don’t get mad about that stuff. It’s not like you’re gonna get disciplined or things like that. It’s like, no, we just need to solve a problem. Maybe we put a quality review process in place. Maybe we do, how do we adjust the workflow or something, so we catch things like that before they happen. That kind of stuff. And the, I actually, that’s one of the things that a interviewer reviewed this last year. That my first employee you mentioned to me, was like, you’re just completely different, working for you. He’s like, I’m not afraid of you ever.

 

– That’s good. And that’s something you have to develop. And apparently it’s not common. I didn’t know that.

 

– It’s not, it is not common, yeah, yeah. And it’s critically important to build that strong relationship. And that goes back to the, what we talked about. It’s one thing to recruit and bring somebody in. But if you don’t have the skills to lead them once they’re there, then really our efforts are useless. And so that’s a big part of building and developing a high performing team, is knowing how to lead them. And just like what you’re talking about, they’re building a relationship and the channels of communication that you need for them to trust you and not be afraid of you. That they know, hey, I can make a mistake and we can move past it. We can learn from it and move past it.

 

– Yeah, yeah, and so I have another question for you. That’s sort of on the selfish side here, because you have more experience here in this. One of the mindsets that I have struggled with. With is because I’ve been an entrepreneur pretty much my whole life, like since I was 13. I started my first business in high school. And one of the mindsets I struggle with regularly is when I go to hire someone. I feel like I’m trapping them in a job because I would feel trapped in a job. And because it’s, I’m just not an employee, and I could never really be an employee. And I know that’s not a correct mindset. But it’s something that I have to I struggle with. And I don’t really know how to frame it in my head, that I’m hiring people, and I’m not doing them a disservice, if that makes sense.

 

– You know, I’ve got a friend that used to always say that we would sit down, and we have lunch about once a month, and he’s very much an entrepreneurial mind. He’s a visionary. And he would always say that he’s like, “I could never do what you do, “because I couldn’t ever recommend someone go take a job.” There’s so many ways to make money with your passion, and he goes through all these things. You can create a blog and make money from it. You get a podcast and make money from it. You can do all these things and find your passion and make money. I could never recommend that. And, you know, admittedly for about six months, we would sit down and he would talk about this, and be like, “yeah, you’re right, yeah, you’re right. “Yeah, you’re right, it’s hard.” And finally, one day, I guess I just had enough of it and I said, “Here’s where you’re wrong. “Not everybody’s cut out for that.”

 

– Yeah, I mean, it’s hard.

 

– The reality is, yeah, there’s only so many people that have the mindset of an entrepreneur, that have the risk tolerance of an entrepreneur, that have the the craziness, the relentless optimism that. How many times you say, starting a business at 13 years old. How many times have you started something, you always start something, knowing it’s going to work. And then the market has to prove you wrong. Not everyone has that. And, frankly, how terrible would it be if we all did? It would just be a terrible place to live. So the reality is, there are certain people that, you’re exactly right, there are certain people it is, or could be, a disservice to give them a job in a box. But for the vast majority of people, it is an amazing service that we are providing to them by giving giving them this opportunity to excel, by giving this opportunity to shine. But think about it this way. You just talked about the experience that your employee had, and saying, “I trust you, “I like you, this is such a different environment.” So imagine the service you’re providing to someone to bring them into that environment and out of the negative environment that they were in. Job dissatisfaction rates are at record highs right now. And job dissatisfaction leads to divorce, it leads to financial problems, it leads to poor mental health. You are saving someone and their livelihood and their family, and their future, and generations, by putting them in an environment where they can excel where they enjoy what they do. And so that’s the mindset that we have to have whenever we’re doing that. I don’t want a bunch of entrepreneurs on my team. We talk about that, and you hear business owners talk about it a lot that, well I want people that take personal ownership. What’s the difference between taking personal ownership and having an entrepreneurial drive? I don’t want that. That’s not necessarily beneficial for me. But let me take this to the next side of it because I actually ran into this with an employee of mine, who just left a few minutes ago, right before we jumped on here. I had an employee that worked for me for about two years. And really, I knew when I hired him, in fact, I actually talked about in the interview, I said, it looks like you want to be a business owner. You want to be an entrepreneur. What’s gonna keep you from doing that whenever you work with me? Well, at that point, he was like, “Look, I’ve tried it. “I’ve tried a couple things that obviously isn’t working. “It’s not for me.” but I knew all along. That’s what he had in him. Well, what I did then was I leveraged that, not in a bad way by any means, but whenever he would come to me with ideas, it’s like, “Okay, well, you’ve got this idea.” He has kind of the safe zone to try these things out in our business that benefit us. So he was actually hired in a sales role. He eventually came to me and said, “Hey, I really think I’m better at marketing. “My mind just seems to be working well, in that way. “I’d like to try more of that. “And so I think I’m gonna leave, “I’m gonna start my own marketing business.” And I said, “You aren’t ready to start a marketing business. “You haven’t proven yourself as a marketer yet. “But why don’t you prove yourself on us? “Let me be your guinea pig. “So you do have great ideas. “Now you need to learn how to execute them “and polish them out, do that for us. “And so create a plan.” And so I basically lead him through to being our marketing person. And then about a year later, a year and a half, maybe. He came to me again, and he said, “I think I’m ready.” I said, ” I think you’re right, you are ready.” But I was able to use the skills and the drive that he has an entrepreneur to benefit our business, while helping get him ready to go launch his career. And so I told him, whenever he came in and told me, it was time, and that he felt like he needed to quit. I said, “I agree, I’ve only one condition, “I’m your first client, because I still need your services.” And it was a win win, I outsource to him, which cost me less than whenever I was doing it internally. And he was able to go live out this dream. So there are different ways you have to think about that. And it really depends on the individual you’re bringing into your business. But in reality, you’re doing a lot of people an amazing service by putting them in an incredible environment, if you have one, an incredible environment in a great company culture. And getting them out of potentially, negative space that they were in before.

 

– Yeah, it’s interesting, because it feels to me like one of the things that I’ve done in my businesses last year is it’s no longer just a business that serving clients. It’s like I have a second business. And it’s like, the business inside the business of serving the people who run the business, if that makes sense.

 

– You’re right, yeah, exactly right.

 

– And it’s just added a lot of things to my responsibility plate, which is, it’s not a bad thing. It’s just part of part of The process and it’s like, I spent into this last year, I spent some time on the phone with each one of my small team, small staff members finding out, where are you now. What is it, doing some dream building with them. What is it that you guys want to accomplish? What kind of house do you want to live in? That kind of thing. And how can the work that we’re doing together, can we help get you there? That kind of thing. And just finding that kind of stuff out with the team members, and really just understanding, helping them understand that, being part of our team is not just a job, I want to help you get where you want to go in your life. So that kind of stuff. But it’s just been an interesting addition to my business.

 

– And you’re exactly right, and that’s where that shift takes place that we talked about, because it does become about serving this team, and it’s not just simply about the process of doing the job, it’s taking care of them so they’re getting the job done. Yeah, it’s a totally new, if done properly, it’s a totally new experience once you bring people into your business and start building a team, as opposed to running it as a solopreneur.

 

– Absolutely. It’s been crazy. I’m looking at probably 10 or 15 x growth this next year because of it.

 

– Great, yeah, sounds amazing.

 

– It’s really cool. Also a little bit scary, but it’s really cool.

 

– Sure, absolutely, yeah, yes.

 

– So, we talked a little bit about your superpower already, and managing and leading people, I want to talk about the other side of that coin, which is your fatal flaw. Just like Superman had his kryptonite, or Batman wasn’t really a superhero. He’s just really dedicated. The fatal flaw is the thing that you struggled with in your business to either, keep it running or that you run into on a regular basis that, you know, is causing problems. And I think more importantly, how have you helped to work on that for other entrepreneurs who struggle with similar things?

 

– Yeah, that’s a really great question. And, you know, I would say my fatal flaw is that I, I love to chase rabbits. I am the absolute definition of a visionary. And so I have a million ideas that run through my head every day. And 10 of them are probably pretty decent, but I want to do all of them. And so, as an entrepreneur, I don’t think that’s incredibly uncommon. But so what I’ve had to learn from that is consistently kind of go back to the foundation. Go back to who we are, what we do, what we’re here to do. Because every day, I can be on my drive into the office and be thinking of something else we could do that might serve a segment of clients, or another industry that we should push into, or, I do a lot of coaching with other business owners, and I’ll think of another avenue that I may want to pursue on the coaching side. So not only is it important for me, but this is really ultimately what’s been good is I have had to surround myself with people that can bring me back to ground level. I am not a believer in surrounding yourself with Yes, people. I want to be around people that are willing to tell me the truth, and people that are willing to pin me to the wall a little bit. And I mentioned a gentleman that used to be an employee of mine, that was just in here and meeting. We were talking about this year, and what we’re going to do and some things we’re going to do, and he did just that, I remember he had there was like a 10 minute thing and he got done. He was like, “Okay, I’m off my soapbox, “but you needed to hear that.” Well, not everyone has the backbone to stand up to you as a business owner. And so it is important to find people that are willing to do that. I had an employee just yesterday in here, I was telling about a frustration that we were having as a business. Something that wasn’t going really well. And I said, and I just don’t know what to do about it. And he said, “Well, you’re not going to like this, “but I’ve got your solution.” I said, “Okay, what is it?” and it’s something that it was a product that we had canceled last year, because I got mad at the company that provided a good service, but I was just mad at a representative from him. And I canceled him, and I said, “I’m not going back.” But they provided a great service that we really needed. And he said, “We need to sign back up for that. “You need that again.” All right, you know what, you’re right, we do. And so I’ve got to swallow my pride. And I got on the phone, and we we did that. But those are, things that that my team has to know that they can trust, when they kind of hold my feet to the fire. And I’ve got to be able to surround myself with people like that because frankly, I would fail over and over again. If I didn’t have people around me to say “Kyle, we’re getting off track.” “Kyle, you’ve got to refocus.” “Hey, that’s a great idea, but we don’t have time to focus.” “We can’t do that right now, “because we’ve got to do these other things.” So that is absolutely my fatal flaw, is I constantly am coming up with, “Let’s do this, let’s try this, let’s try this other thing.” And, “I believe this will work.” And, “I really love this idea.” And, “We can expand on that.” And so what I’ve had to do is be comfortable with people pushing me and putting pressure on me to say, “Nope, we’re not going to do that. “We can’t do that, this is what we need to do.” And sometimes, and again, I go back to the ego and arrogance, oftentimes as a business owner. It’s tough to be willing to surround yourself with people that will, I heard someone say, the other day on my podcast, I had a guest and she said it this way, and I loved it. She said, “I surround myself with people “that give me the gift of the truth.” And I just love that comment because it is truly a gift. Because you’ve experienced, if you start a business at 13 and you’ve done this all your life, you know, there are a million people will tell you, “Well that’s a great idea, you should do that. You need a few people around you that are saying, “That’s a terrible idea, and it’s not going to work. “Don’t waste your time and money.” You also get the people who tell you you’re crazy, just because you’re doing entrepreneurial work, too.

 

– That’s true that that’s what gives you that little drive to say, prove you wrong.

 

– Yeah, yeah.

 

– But you know, it’s important to have people that are willing to give you the gift of the truth.

 

– Yeah, so a couple of thoughts on that. One of them is, as an entrepreneur, the whole visionary, having all the ideas and everything, it’s like an invaluable skill. It’s part of, the business wouldn’t survive without that. So you have to give yourself a safe space for those things. And one of the things that I have found is useful for it because to your point, exactly, if you just do that all the time, you’ll just die. Nothing will get done ever. So I am one of those people that, I really love the idea phase, and I love the building and planning of the thing. And then once you’ve got the idea, and you figured out how it’s going to get done, it’s not interesting to me anymore. Like, I just don’t care, because I want to come up with something new and other things. So one of the things that I’ve had to do regularly, is like we have. So first one is just having an understanding rule of what’s your one thing. What’s the thing that you guys are known for, and that you do really well? And it energizes all the other products and services that you have. So if you know what that is, then when you have the slew of ideas, you can run them through that filter first. And if they don’t pass the one thing test right there, this is not one of the, it doesn’t fit into our umbrella, this is the thing that we’re known for and what we’re good at. Then you can just safely put it in another box, and that’s something else, but the ones that do pass through have a space in your business for, how can we develop the systems and processes for this, and see how it fits, and have extra resources available that are like, hey, we got this person. My team over here is like, Hey, we got 10 hours a week that is just for when I come up with an idea, I want you to look into it, and see how it works, and see if we can fit into our business, and make it something that is a part of what you do. So you don’t lose out on the new ideas and everything that come through your business.

 

– Yeah, and I think that’s a great idea. Because you’re right, I have to have a little bit of freedom, to think, and to have that flexibility. But you’re right. Everything has to go back to that that filter. You’ve got to go back to, why are we here? What’s our mission? What are we trying to accomplish? And so, again, as I come to these ideas. One of the things that I do with that is I figure out. Does it fit in? How would my, how is my team involved in this? Meaning, is this something that I’m just going out on my own and doing, or is this something that actually makes sense for the business as a whole, that my team can be a part of. Where would they fit into this process, that isn’t a distraction from what we do? But in fact is a complement to what we do. And that’s one of the filters. The other thing that I look at, one of my, one of the biggest focal points for me is relieving stress for the business owner, I want to relieve stress for business owners, because there’s a lot on our plate, we’re wearing a lot of hats. And so if that’s a filter that I generally go through first, like, I’ve got this idea, and this will be really good. But is that actually going to relieve stress? Or is that maybe going to put extra pressure put more for them to think, about more for them to do? And if it doesn’t, if it’s not a stress relief for a business owner, then it almost immediately gets thrown in file 13. But if it’s something that I think, well, this does, and it’s complimentary to what we do, and this is how my team is going to be engaged and involved in that, then this is an area we may want to pursue. But then the other thing is I try to look at, and of course this time of year is really whenever I think about those things. But about every six months I look at, okay, I’ve got these ideas. And if an idea sticks with me for a long time, then I feel like I need to be doing something with it. And so if an idea has been with me for quite a while, then about every six months, that’s whenever I’ll say, “Okay, which of these ideas “am I going to actually try to move forward with?” Because if not, I’d be doing something new every week. So about every six months, when I say this one’s been with me for a couple of years. I really want to put some focus on this. And so I’ll work with some people on the team to say, just like you’d mentioned. Does this make sense? How can we do this? How do we promote this? And is it something that we can use to complement the business? But that’s where I give myself some space on that, is every few months thinking. Okay, I’m going to put, we’re going to put some extra effort into this and see if it makes sense. And some of those things won’t work, and then some of them do, and become part of who we are.

 

– One of the examples in my businesses last year was we’re building a business called Push Button Podcasts, which helps podcasters do all the stuff after they hit the stop record button, And then just like everything. That’s what we’ve been building the team around. And every time I’ve been talking and working with clients, one of the things that they see is our back end. They see all of our systems and processes. And we have like meticulously documented stuff. And man, I have a whole process we go through for how you develop a system in your business. How you take something that you do, and turn it into a system, how you break out the workflows, how you break out the processes, and we have all this stuff for it. And when I show business owners that, they’re like, “I want your service for the Push Button Podcast, “but how do I get the processed stuff that you’re doing? “Can you do that for us?” And so I’ve actually, it’s one of the things that it kept coming up over and over again, and I was like, “I guess we could. So actually we just just starting up another wing on the business. We’re calling a Push Button Processes. And we’re actually helping businesses do, take their systems, actually build systems in their business, and turn them into documented workflows. That they can actually go through, and get things done, and plug people into. So it’s, sometimes you just have to listen. Some of the ideas are really good.

 

– That’s what ended up. So as part of the recruiting business, as I mentioned, we help the backend and the leadership coaching. And through that, that’s what ended up developing our other brand, which is the Employer Blueprint, because it was, okay, we’ve recruited, that was the core function. But then we were also just helping with some leadership coaching and management coaching on the back end of that, which led people to say, “Hey, we need some additional help beyond these people “that you’ve helped place for us. “We need some assistance, we need some support. “What are the resources out there?” and so that’s what ultimately led to the Employer Blueprint, which is almost exclusively a coaching brand that we have. And so that’s where I do business coaching and leadership coaching. That’s where our podcast comes from. All the resources we put out online are really around this piece of it, because it’s absolutely a compliment to, even if someone doesn’t use us for recruiting, they have 5, 10 employees. And they need some support, understanding how to hire, how to fire, how to develop, how to train. How to get some freedom from their business. You know, they’re shackled to the business. How do I get some freedom, and take some time off? Well, let’s help develop your team, and we’re going to provide you the tools and resources to do that. And so it’s the same thing. It was an idea that I had, I was like, “I love to coach, I love this side of it.” Our clients appreciated what we were doing. Well this is an obvious complement to what we’re doing and so it’s become it’s own entity. And so it’s Gorman Recruiting and the Employer Blueprint. And so we’re able to help people with that leadership management side.

 

– Awesome, I feel like we should have a discussion later because I think some of the Push Button Process stuff might be a compliment for some of your customers.

 

– It could be, yeah, absolutely.

 

– So my next question for you is about your common enemy. So common enemy is in reference to your your clients. When you bring someone on new, who you’re going to do recruiting work for, or somebody, the stuff you were just talking about. Mindsets that you struggle with, from your clients, right? That you see consistently that if, you wish you had a magic wand and you could just remove that mindset and make it get better results faster. What’s one of those things, that common enemy that you see all the time?

 

– Gosh, that’s really good. You know, the biggest one, I think, that we continue to see over and over again, in the recruiting cycle is, everyone seems to think that a new employee has to have experience in their industry. You know, once we’ve broken through the hurdle of, well, I may be able to do this. I may be able to do this on my own, and I don’t know if it makes sense for me to afford this. Once we’ve gotten through some of those things and we help people understand the real cost associated with not hiring the right person. The constant one that we are overcoming almost every time, is, “Well, I need someone that has experience in my industry. They need to have, I need someone that has five years experience in this industry, I need them to have this specific background or skill set. And we work a lot with professional services companies in insurance, and wealth management, and real estate, and it’s amazing in those types of industries, everybody thinks you have to have experience in that, but reality you really are going to reduce your candidate pool pretty extensively, if people have experience in those spaces. So what we look for are what we simply call the transferable skills. And I’ll give you an excellent example of this. Let’s say we’re recruiting a customer service rep for an insurance company. Our client will generally come to us, day one, and they say, “Well, we need someone that’s already licensed in insurance, “and they’ve got five to seven years experience “in the insurance industry, and they’ve sold these products. “They understand these things.” And that’s part of our process, is helping them understand where we’ve actually seen success when we don’t do that. In fact, we’ve seen a lot of failure rates when we have brought people to the table that have these experiences. So instead, let’s look for people that have great detail skills, confidentiality skills, problem solving skills, that have a lot of customer service experience. And if we can break down what are the skills actually needed for this job, regardless of the industry? Then we can go out and find someone with those transferable skills that are usually going to come in slightly less expensive, that you can train the way that you want them to be, that don’t come in with bad habits, and a mentality of, well I already know exactly how to do this, but they come in with a desire to learn. And you’re going to create more loyalty from that employee because you taught them this industry, that now is new and exciting for them. So that is absolutely the biggest one that we face almost 100% of the time with a new client, is helping them understand, someone doesn’t have to come from your industry to be an amazing performer. Now, will the learning curve be a few extra weeks? Maybe, but I’m not hiring someone for six months. I’m hiring someone to be there for years. So the few extra weeks it’s gonna take them to train, to get the person that makes sense for you, is well worth it. So that five years from now, this person is still a top performer on your team.

 

– Yeah, I had someone give me a metaphor for that one. I don’t remember exactly what the context was. It was something along the lines of like, You can hire a lion. Or you could hire a lion cub, and teach them how to hunt.

 

– Right, right. That’s great, yeah.

 

– And I was like, That’s it’s an interesting way to think about it. right? ‘Cause it’d cost you a lot more money to hire a lion. And they’re going to have the way that they know how to hunt and they do the things. It’s like, were you can hire a lion cub. Which will, A, cost you a lot less money. And then you can teach them how to hunt the way that you want.

 

– Exactly. And this, it’s different five years ago, but in this job market, as we sit here right now, in 2020, a small business especially, you probably can’t afford the lion. Because all the big companies around, they’ve hired them, and they can pay more money, better benefits, and yada yada yada, the list goes on and on. So chances are, you can’t, and even if you can, there’s a higher risk of them leaving because they are so marketable, because they’re already a lion. But you can bring in that lion cub that now knows the same things you talked about earlier. You know, people, they like you, they trust you and they feel like they’re a part of this business. There’s a loyalty there that you can’t put a price on. I mean, you can actually, companies do it all the time, and it’s in the tens of thousands of dollars. But it’s hard to put the price on the loyalty that’s created through that, because you’re the one that developed them. You’re the one that gave them a chance. You’re the one that’s helped them excel. And you’ve put them in an environment that they actually enjoy being in. So that’s a great metaphor. That’s a great metaphor, I love that I’ll probably use that again, sometime. I really like that.

 

– Yeah, I can’t remember who said it to me. I guess I can’t even give them credit. But it was, someone said that to me. And I was like, That’s a really good thought for for who you’re hiring. Because there are occasions where you need to hire a lion, but you’re probably, not all of your roles. Probably the overwhelming majority of them, it makes sense to hire and develop.

 

– That’s right, yeah, most of the time it does. And that’s generally what we recommend is find someone that has the skills, the transferable skills, you can teach them the industry. I’ve not seen an industry yet that isn’t teachable. So you can teach the industry and you can teach some of the specifics but find someone that has the skills, but most importantly has the personality that’s going to fit well with you and your company.

 

– Awesome. So now next question for you is about your driving force. You mentioned this a bit a little bit ago, about wanting to take stress off of business owners but just like Spider man fights to save New York, or Batman fights to save Gotham, or Google fights to index and categorize all the world’s information. What is it that you guys fight for at Gorman recruiting?

 

– Well, yeah, I mean, I kind of talked about that with the the business owner piece and really, I love watching a small business excel. I love seeing the growth in a business owner to go from an industry expert, a sales expert, to being a true leader in their business. And to truly be the type of employer that people want to come work for. And that’s where I really gain so much satisfaction. So we love sitting back, when we’ve made a recommendation of a candidate to a company, and we’re following up with them routinely. So let’s say we get six months in, and when that business owner saying, “Oh my gosh, I feel like I’ve known this person forever. “They’ve been such an amazing addition to my team.” Whenever we’re talking to that new employee that’s been there for six months, they’re like, “Oh, this is an answer to my prayers. “This is amazing, I love it here. “You know, I’m so glad that I was able to make this move, “this was the greatest thing that’s ever happened to me.” There is just a tremendous amount of satisfaction in knowing that we helped allow that to happen. And then, taking that to the next level, is when we can see that transition, and I’m able to work with the business owner, to help them understand how they can run their business more effectively, more efficiently. How they can lead the team around them. How they can coach them. And by doing that, here’s the beauty is, I love whenever I hear a story of someone that I’m working with, and I’m coaching. And they say “I haven’t been able to take off in three years, “but I’m taking two weeks vacation “and I’m going with my family, we’re going to do something.” There is nothing better than the feeling of knowing that you helped them get to that point. Because they felt shackled to their business. And by being able to step away for just a minute, and trust their team, because they’ve developed a team that they can trust. There is just little more that satisfies me than knowing that I’ve helped someone accomplish that in their life, because of the impact it has on their spouse, and their kids, and their family.

 

– Yeah, the ripple effect you have.

 

– It’s amazing.

 

– From the business, to the team, to the person you put in the place, to the clients, that they can serve now at a higher level. It’s just a tremendous ripple effect.

 

– I love it, yeah, yeah.

 

– That’s awesome.

 

– That’s my favorite part.

 

– So I want to talk about some practical things with you. Like some day to day work. We call this the heroes tool belt, right? Maybe you got a big magical hammer like Thor does, or a bulletproof vest like your neighborhood police officer or maybe you guys just really love how Evernote helps you organize all your things. What are some of the, maybe one or two of the tools that you guys use on a regular basis, like every day, that empower your business, that you know you just couldn’t do what you do without them today?

 

– Yeah, well, one of them is, like we sit here today. So we’re if looking at very tangible things. Zoom is–

 

– Yeah, we’re on Zoom right now.

 

– Yeah, so we are based out of a mid sized market in Western Kentucky, and we have clients all over the United States. And so the ability to use Zoom to conduct interviews and talk with clients. This helps keep our costs down, which we’re able to pass on to our clients. Small business can’t afford to spend, just high end recruiter money. And so we’ve got to find ways to keep our costs down and pass that along to our clients. And that’s one of the things that’s really critical for us. So that’s some amazing technology. Another thing that we use pretty heavily in our business is Slack, we talked about that a few months ago. And our team uses that as well. That’s been really beneficial for us. But the other thing in our world, because on the recruiting side of it is, we use a lot of the same tools that other people have access to, When you look at Indeed, and Zip Recruiter, and things like this. The one thing I would say is maybe a bit different, is the way we are able to use those. We are using these tools in bulk, and so because of that, we’re able to get our positions placed higher. We’re able to get them in front of people better, more effectively, easier. And so those are some tools that are really beneficial for us. That’s sort of the the magic that we have. You know, I often tell my clients, and I don’t say it as a way to be rude but just to help them understand. Because we get asked a lot, “Well how do you find candidates? “I’ve had this job out there for two months “and haven’t gotten anything. “How do you find them?” I’m going to look the same places that you are, I just have better access to those tools. So when I put a job on Indeed, and you put a job on Indeed, my job is going to be seen first. My job is going to be seen more regularly, more often. And so those are some of the tools that we use. And, you know, you talk about Thor’s hammer, everybody has access to a hammer, but it’s not Thor’s hammer. And so everybody has access to the same job boards that we’re using. We just have some kind of–

 

– You guys are worthy.

 

– Yeah, that’s right, that’s right. Yeah, we have some magic tricks in our belt that we’re able to use to help make sure that we are attracting the right people.

 

– Absolutely. Yeah, and it’s just been really amazing. Some of the tools that have come online in the last five years, and what they do for businesses, I tell people all the time, and I feel like we’re in the golden age of business, right? The things that you can do nowadays, 20 years ago, were just unheard of. And five years ago, were way more difficult than they are now. Which is fascinating. And to your point you can serve as a recruiter nationally. And that’s not something you would have been able to do, not at the prices that you do now, 10, 15 years ago.

 

– Well, that’s right. When I started this business in 2013. My original business plan was to have satellite offices in mid markets around the Midwest. That was the plan, because that’s how we had to conduct business. And a few years as technology, and we occasionally we get calls from people that were on the coasts, and in different parts of the country. And we would just say, “It’s really, we’re not, “we want to keep costs down. “We don’t want to make you be paying “for travel and things like that. “So we’d have to do this through phone.” Well, that’s what forced us to find newer technologies, to be able to do things through video and otherwise. And so that it really is interesting, because the model changed within about a three to four year period, from satellite offices, mid market locations, which means I had to have a much larger team to do the same amount of business. To, we can do everything from our home office, we can do it with more companies, we can do it more efficiently. And actually, so this is another interesting thing in 2019. For us, we actually reduced our prices over what they had been even two and three years prior, because of implementing better technologies. So we’re able to drive costs down, do it more efficiently, and work with more companies in a broader geographic area, because of the implementation of technology. Six years ago, it was not at all part of our business plan.

 

– Yeah, that’s insane, and it’s super cool. And it’s only going to get better as we keep going. Yeah, yeah, which is super fun. So, next question here for you, is your own personal heroes. Frodo had Gandalf, Luke had Obi-Wan Kenobi, Robert Kiyosaki and his rich dad. Who were some of your heroes? Were they real life mentors? Were they speakers, or authors, peers who are maybe a few years ahead of you? And how important were they to what you’ve accomplished so far with your business?

 

– Well, you know, I’m an avid reader, and I’m always reading, some of the great authors, Jim Collins, and Patrick Lencioni, and Simon Sinek, and all those things that are out there. And I love the resources they put out there. But in reality, I would say the one person that had the biggest influence on me as a manager, outside of my dad. My dad was a public school principal. And so I learned a lot from him over the years about how to lead and manage people. But that I really saw just real life that I experienced on my own. There’s a gentleman by the name of Dick Wiggins that I worked with in college. And he was a an entry level manager at a home improvement store that I worked at. And I learned more about management from him than anybody else I’ve ever known. Because he had a way of relating to us as employees, both as a boss and a friend. And I’d never seen that before. Someone that could jump our case. And in that environment, I don’t recommend this in most business environments, but in that environment, I mean, he could cuss us up and down, and tell us what we did wrong, and jump our case. And two hours later, we’re after work, having a drink and an appetizer and just enjoying each other’s company. And he had a way of doing that, that I’d never seen before. That it didn’t feel awkward. And it was very just authentic to who he was. It didn’t feel forced. And I really learned a lot about management from him because I learned how to, I believe one of the greatest skills in leadership is to understand how to be direct and empathetic. And that I believe is where loving communication comes from. If you can be direct and empathetic. And I’ll give you just one example of the many. But I had a situation that came up, and again I was in college and had a situation come up in I my personal life, and I left work. I had only been there about two hours of an eight hour shift. And I went over to one of my friends I worked with, and I said, “Hey, I’ve got to go, I’ve got to leave. “I’ve got to go take care of this.” And so I just up and left. Well, absolutely it was a fireable offense, and I’d been working there for maybe about a year and a half. Absolutely a fireable offense. The next day I come in, Richard comes up to me, and he says, “Kyle, yesterday, this is what you…” and he, finger pointing in my face. “This is what you did wrong. “You let down your team, you let me down, “you should be fired for this.” And he just, he let me know very clearly, that I had done something wrong. That I should be terminated. He’s gonna let me off the hook this one time, but if this ever happens again, you’re out of here, it’s not, I mean, just absolutely let me have it for about two minutes. And he was a, I’m kind of a large guy in stature. He was a little guy. So he’s looking up at me and pointing at me. And he gets through, he said, “Do you understand me?” And I said, “Yeah, Wiggins, I get it.” “Are you sure? “Because I’m not playing this is–” “I get it, I understand.” He said, “Okay.” And immediately he stopped. He took a breath, and he said, “Now, is everything okay?” And I learned more in that moment about being a great leader than any book I’ve ever read in my life. Because he had a way to make sure I fully understood, we have a responsibility here. And he is going to hold me accountable to my responsibility. But he also cared about me enough to make sure that I was okay, and things were okay. And if not, he wanted to help me through that. And he is absolutely a real life hero for me. And I hope that he knows that. He and I still keep in touch occasionally. That was 20 plus years ago, but, he’s really meant a lot to who I am as a leader and the things that I’ve learned over the years.

 

– Yeah, that’s a really cool story too. And just learning how to have what you called loving communication. And that’s a hard thing to manage. And because it’s one of those things that, it requires that you actually care. It’s not something that you can fake or put on, you have to actually care about the people on your team.

 

– That’s right, yeah, you have to.

 

– Yeah, so that’s a really good thing. So last question so we can wrap up this interview, is your guiding principles. What are the top one or two principles or actions that you use regularly today, that you think contribute to the success and influence you guys have at Gorman Recruiting? Maybe ones that you wish you’d had when you started out as an entrepreneur?

 

– Yeah, I would say it kind of goes back to the root of some of the things that we’ve learned. So one of them is just that selfless approach. That’s not always easy for me. But that is absolutely a guiding principle. It’s just kind of a humility and selflessness to what we are doing. And really, I’m probably going to break that down in two, you have selflessness. But then the second piece of that is the humility. And that’s something we really have to consistently engage in ourselves on the recruiting side. Because, understand that our business, we really aren’t getting paid until we’ve made a recommendation, and someone gets hired. So it’d be very easy for us to recommend someone just to get that paycheck. But early on, I knew that’s not the type of business that I wanted to build. And so because of that, we do things very differently. Our guarantees are different, our type of service, and support after the recruiting is different. Everything that we do is a bit different because of that. And so that humility is important because there are a lot of times that we have to be willing to go to a client and say, “Do I have a couple of candidates for you? “I do. “But I’m just not confident that these are the people “that are really going to be right for you long term. “I think they’re going to put a bandaid on the problem, “they’re not going to fix the issue.” And those are a couple of things that are really important to us. And that ties right into the selflessness. But we have to be, we all say those things, about putting the client first and putting the customer, but it’s different to really put it into daily practice. And that’s something that we have to do, even when I know a client’s gonna be mad, because, I’ve told him, I’ve got a couple of candidates, we’re going through this process, they’re looking pretty good. I think this is going to be good. And then, I sit and I really evaluate and I think, this isn’t the right thing to do. And I know, whenever I have those conversations, the clients going to be mad, because they’re saying, “We thought we were two or three weeks “from having a new person in place. “And now you’re telling me, we’re back the drawing board.” But I know that it’s the right thing to do. And so those are a couple of real guiding principles, I would say for us. I hold a very strong faith, and so I pray frequently, and I leave a lot of things to God in how I operate my business. And that’s one of those things that I just believe that at the end of the day, I don’t want to steer someone wrong just simply to collect a paycheck. And so because of that, I’ve always got to put myself in their shoes and say, “How do I want someone to handle this situation “if they’re doing it for me?” And sometimes that means I’d rather someone make me mad in this conversation, but to do the right thing by me later on. And so that’s what I have to do.

 

– One of the things that I see in my business is how hard, it’s really hard when you’re like, we’ve got something that either didn’t go right, because we do a lot of things that involve automation, and robots, and processes, and stuff for our clients. And things break. Right? And when things break, very rarely is it anyone’s fault. But that doesn’t work for your, for the people that you’ve hired, or that have hired you. So you have to just come in and say, I’m sorry, we broke this. We have to take ownership of it. And we have to fix it. And here’s how we’re going to fix it, kind of thing. And it’s a similar kind of thing. But yeah, you have to, you know it’s gonna make them mad. You know, it’s not going to go right.

 

– But it’s the right thing. It’s what you have to do.

 

– It’s just what you have to do. And it’s a hard pill to swallow. It’s not fun, by any stretch of the imagination. So I think that basically wraps up the interview. I have one last thing I do here with everyone. It’s a challenge I call the hero challenge. We do it on every show, and it’s basically this. Do you have someone in your network that you think has a cool entrepreneurial story? Who are they? First names are fine. And why do you think that they should come in and share their story with our audience?

 

– Yeah, you know, I’ve had the opportunity to meet a lot of entrepreneurs. There’s really, there is one that comes to mind, that doesn’t ever share his story. And it’s a guy that runs company called JustU Marketing. He’s actually local, and I’ve had the opportunity to meet people all over the world. But his journey from being a wealth manager and a financial advisor, into being a small business marketer is pretty interesting. And that journey, came through us at one point but he has a really unique story and he’s, but he’s a behind the scenes guy, so he never really shares it. But he would be, it’d be really neat to have the opportunity to open up and share what his journey’s looked like.

 

– And what’s his name?

 

– Dedrick Jackson.

 

– Dedrick Jackson, awesome. We’ll see if we can connect later about maybe convincing me to come on the show and share his story.

 

– Yeah, I hope so, he’d be fun.

 

– So with that, thank you so much for coming on the show, Kyle. It has been a fascinating conversation, to say the least. My last thing here for you is where can people find you? If they’re looking for someone to come into their business? Where can they find you? And more importantly, who are the right kind of people to reach out and say, “Hey, you know what, I need help. “I need to work with someone like Gorman Recruiting.”

 

– Sure, well, so if you are looking to add someone to your team or replace someone on your team, then you can get more information from us at gormanrecruiting.com If you just need some support and assistance and helping understand how to lead your team a little bit better. Then you can, I would say first place to go is to theemployerblueprint.com that’ll actually lead you to an online course that we have, but there’s some contact stuff in there. And so you can reach out to me directly. And I’d love to just talk to you about that, and see if there’s some ways that we may be able to help. But so, yeah, check out gormanrecruiting.com or you can go to theemployerblueprint.com

 

– Awesome, so if you’re listening to this and you are at a place where you need to grow your team, which I can absolutely say with certainty because I’ve been doing it this last year, it will help you grow your business. Take the time, reach out to Kyle and Gorman Recruiting or themployerblueprint.com and see if you can help grow your business there. Kyle, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Really appreciate it. You have any final parting words of wisdom before we hit the stop record button here?

 

– Well, you know, there’s one thing that someone told me one time that it’s meant so much to me over the years, and that is just don’t stop. We see so many business owners and entrepreneurs stop just a little too soon, right before that big break happens. So just keep going and understand that there’s some good things happening on the other side of that wall. Just gotta bust through it.

 

– Awesome, sounds good. Thank you so much, Kyle.

 

– Thank you, appreciate it.