Episode 100 Part 2 – Zach Hammer

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Automated Transcription

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Zach Hammer 0:00
All you have to do is just connect to people that can help each other and can make great things happen in the world. And in doing that, you get to get to be seen as somebody who is incredibly valuable. And so when the opportunity comes up, where you might be the person who can help connect them to the thing that they are wanting to do in life, you’ve already brought enough value through connecting them to tools and articles and apps and things that they find valuable. And people, because people are really nine times out of 10 like an app, is cool, but like if you really want to make shifts in your life, it’s generally done through people.

Richard Matthews 0:36
… 3-2-1

Zach Hammer 1:31
Because there’s a lot of aspects about you and I that are very similar in terms of the end results of how we think of things right like we are both fairly systematic people. We are both, you know, like detail and data-oriented and a lot of ways. We are both able to connect with people very well and very readily. And, have strong reason relationships and have been able to do that. But what’s interesting is that we sort of discovered the reason and the underlying process for how that comes about. For you and I came from different places and that’s where we sort of figure out where I think my superpower comes from is that I relate to and connect to people at a very deep level. I am, within minutes of meeting somebody able to dive into – you describe it this way, their deepest darkest secrets of who they are and what makes them who they are. And it’s and it’s not because like I’m like, pulling tricks and, and getting them to reveal things. It’s because, for whatever reason, I like the amount that I care about other people come through so readily that I think the average person feels very comfortable talking to me –

Richard Matthews 2:57
Its genius-level empathy is what I call it.

Zach Hammer 3:00
Right, right and, and so like I, I very much I do actually care about the people that I’m talking to, no matter who they are – no matter what, you know, like, where they come from, I’m able to relate to people very well. And that that skill has fueled a lot of what else I do. So a lot of my marketing messaging, how I position my courses, my trainings, my products, because I understand what people want out of their life out of their products, like I put myself into somebody else’s shoes at a very deep level. And, and through that I’m able to look at the world from their perspective and create the solutions that I would want if I were them. And that’s, that’s, that’s essentially, you know, what, what I do?

Richard Matthews 3:48
Yeah, and I remember when we were talking about this, we were like one of the examples that popped up was like how you and I go about building a relationship, right with someone new that you’ve met and for me, right like you empathy is not my thing, right? Systems and processes are my thing. And like I see things in systems the way that other people don’t. And so, for me, like, it’s always been, like, I when I go to build a relationship with someone, I have analyzed people that have good relationship building skills, and I’ve like noted the things that they’re doing. And then gotten good at them myself, right figured out, like, hey, these are some of the things that you do for people like, like everything down to like body language tactics that people are using, and just sort of turn them into things that I’m doing. Right. And what’s interesting is you have like, because of empathy, you have that natural sort of, I call it a gift right to to just act in that way, right to act in the way that someone does needs in order for you to to connect with them. But what’s interesting is we both end up in the same place with our ability to build a relationship. They just come from different areas, right? We both do the same things. And I think it’s actually really kind of a fun concept. One of the things that you and I have talked a lot about is the idea that you are not what you think you are, that what you do. Right? So like, what happens in your head is irrelevant to who you are as a person. Right? It’s the actions that you take to define who you are. So when people look at us, right, they see us from our actions and the ways that we do, so they would look at both of us and say, Hey, you guys are both really good at building relationships and networking and whatever, you know, whatever the things come out of that. So it’s irrelevant that we come to it from different places. It’s that we sort of get there we get to the same place because of our underlying skill sets. So anyways, I always found that that discussion really fascinating.

Zach Hammer 5:40
Yeah, and I think I like like part of what’s interesting about it, I mean, there’s definitely I don’t know if there’s a way that I could describe how how like the way I think and connect to people relates to like my systems thinking, I just think I happen to have a decent enough like detail oriented systems, thinking process that I’m able to do that well, but but really it like, at the foundation the thing that drives everything else is definitely the empathy and the relationships. But like for you, because there’s such deep systems thinking that that feels like everything else like you could be good at empathy and good at relationships because you understand it at a systems level. And like as a for instance, you could teach people to connect to other people, right? Like you could, you could teach that because you see the pieces in the structure, and like if I really stepped back and looked at it, I probably could. But I couldn’t teach somebody how to do connecting with people like I do, because I don’t think about it. It’s not a conscious process. It’s definitely like it was 100% happening at a subconscious level for me. And so like, I like I can’t help somebody else to do that very readily. Right. Like that’s not that’s not a thing I understand, but but anyway, yeah.

Richard Matthews 6:59
That’s why that’s why I’ve gotten into professional teaching. But you know, the it’s it’s such a it’s such a fun discussion to like really get into what your superpowers are when you sort of understand you’re talking about what’s the the sub-framework of like how you were built, and how those sort of power your other things, right? Because like when you when you talk about, like for us that juxtaposition of like we both are pretty good with systems. And we’re both pretty good at empathy. Right? You know, there’s a lot more to us than that. But those two aspects fit nicely together for this discussion. Right, you have a huge desire to build really good systems in your business, because good systems allow you to connect people better. Right, right.

Zach Hammer 7:41
Yeah. Good systems are sustainable. Good systems are repeatable. So you can make an impact in people’s lives at, you know, at scale. So yeah, caring about people requires good systems.

Richard Matthews 7:56
Your empathy drives your building of systems, right? For me, it’s flip flopped, right? My desire to build really good systems is what made me get good at empathy. Right? Like I was like I had to learn how to break it down and figure out what it was. But again, the outcropping of that is the same, right, we end up with the same, the same result. So anyways, I always found that – one of my favorite discussions we’ve had over the course of our life was sort of figuring that out about ourselves.

Zach Hammer 8:21
Right. Right. Yeah. And if I, if I think for any, any other geeks out there, the the example that that we gave, that I think that you know, nailed it in terms of the example is if you’re familiar with Ender’s Game, and especially if you’re familiar with the companion related book Ender’s Shadow, which which reveals more of like what’s going on in Bean’s thinking –

Richard Matthews 8:48
The best books written by the way.

Zach Hammer 8:50
Yeah, we should sort of figure that out, in that world. My my, my skill set is derived in a similar way from from Ender Wiggin, your skill set is derived in a similar way to Bean that that it you know it it’s essentially but you end up with a with a similar caliber, similar class person where you know in that’s in that story Bean could have stepped in and probably saved the saved the universe just as readily as Ender you know, Ender did but you know that’s not how the story played out but I but you know anyway you end up in a similar spot through different skill sets.

Richard Matthews 9:31
Yeah I find it really fascinating that like you and I have similar skill sets to those two characters in that book and they were supposed to happen to be like some of our favorite books but anyways the – we’ll put links to those in the show notes for – it’s … that are like, which by the way if you read those books and you see the genius level of Bean and and Ender, neither of us are at that level, we’re not that cool.

Zach Hammer 9:56
No, no, not not, not saying that.

Richard Matthews 10:02
You know, we would like to be that cool, but we’re not. But the underlying concept makes a lot of sense. So I want to move on a little bit and flip and talk about the Fatal Flaw. Right? So if your Superpower is one of the things that you know, that is one side, the other side of that coin’s your Fatal Flaw, right? So just like Superman has his Kryptonite, we all have that thing that holds us back. And I think the most interesting part of this discussion is not only what is it for you, but what have you been doing to sort of help overcome that? Right and the example I use for my guests is like, I am a perfectionist sometimes to the point of like, I don’t ship things right. I’ll play and fiddle and like it’s not right yet. It’s not right yet. And I like for me, I had to hire other people and have them do the shipping part because I would just never bring things to market. So that’s been a huge win for me, is learning how to outsource the last portion because my perfectionism makes me not want to ship. So what is your Fatal Flaw? And how have you been working on it for people who might suffer from something similar?

Zach Hammer 11:04
Yeah, so So for me, one of, it’s a little bit hard to define. So maybe we can unpack it a little bit. But I’d say it’s related to the way that, you know, we’ve mentioned, I, I help people until it hurts. And sometimes what that means is that my business suffers, because I’m so focused on somebody else’s problem and somebody else’s, you know, somebody else’s situation, and so I won’t take the actions necessary to, you know, produce what I need to in my business or, or, you know, it’s very easy for me to get to get sucked into solving a client’s problem, that, that the problems that my own business might be facing, don’t get dealt with. And so, yeah, in terms of a … , would you say that that’s kind of an accurate description, you know, you know, what goes on in my business. Yeah.

Richard Matthews 11:55
And, and so, so to just to further that, It’s it seems to me sometimes like it is a a the whole give till it hurts sometimes is like, someone will come to you with a problem and you’re like, I can help you solve that problem and you’re so interested in helping them solve that problem, sometimes you’ll forget to ask them to pay you to help them solve that problem.

Zach Hammer 12:14
Yeah that’s that’s a true story.

Richard Matthews 12:21
So it’s almost like, you know, it seems to me sometimes that a lot of a lot of times your Superpower and your Fatal Flaw are tied together right they’re the flip side of the coin, what’s the dark side of someone who’s a systems thinker, right? That I can never make the system good enough. Right? So I never ship it. Right? What’s the flip side of having, you know, genius level empathy is that sometimes you forget that you should probably be paid for your expertise.

Zach Hammer 12:45
Well, what’s interesting is that because like, you know, for me, I have no problems getting paid, right? It’s not It’s not that I’m bothered by getting paid. I’m perfectly comfortable with an exchange of value. For me, the problem is, like, sometimes I need to be so sure of the value that I’m getting before I’m comfortable getting paid. I’m very uncomfortable if I’m getting paid for something that I like, I don’t see the value that I’m bringing, right? Like, if I don’t really understand they are getting X when I’m giving Y? I like, I just I don’t I don’t you know, I don’t even want to get it like. So it’s easy, where it’s like, if the value exchange is they’re giving me nothing, and I’m giving them some effort. Well, that’s easy, right they’re. Obviously, it’s it, you know, they are getting value out of it. Right? I may not be but they are. And so I’m more comfortable with that. If I if I could –

Richard Matthews 13:44
It always has to be in their benefit. Right? And if you can’t see how it’s in their benefit, you don’t want to move forward with it.

Zach Hammer 13:51
Exactly, exactly.

Richard Matthews 13:53
It’s one of the reasons why I think you have been naturally drawn to the marketing world because marketing a lot of times has very measurable results. And you can show someone, hey, we were able to deliver XYZ, right? And that is in relation to what we’re paying, it’s a higher value, right? Like, you probably would not get into the space where you were selling relationship advice, because, like, as valuable as that is to people, it’s hard to put a hard value on. Right?

Zach Hammer 14:21
You’re right.

Richard Matthews 14:22
So you would be uncomfortable selling it.

Zach Hammer 14:25
Right. It’s, it’s very, it’s very easy for me to say, Hey, I will give you $10, will you give me 1? Like, that’s an easy thing, right? Like, that’s it. That’s an easy exchange. So that’s essentially what I try to do with marketing. I try and say, Hey, I’m going to help you create systems that will generate a flood of business. You know, if you pay me a 10th of that, I will help you do it. So yeah, I’d say that’s probably the, the biggest flaw is, is Yeah, there you know, it is there’s a fair amount of work, a fair amount of effort that is required for me to become comfortable asking for money. Okay, so that’s that’s part of it, which can cause its own problems. The other thing is that it’s the thing that causes me to do work that is often tied to other people. Right? And that that’s probably one of the biggest areas where I have been able to. So I’ve got two solutions to my problems that I’ve put into place. So one of them is because it is very easy for me to show up, show up to an appointment to have a conversation. If I’ve got a group of students that are wanting to learn something. I have no problem spending the entire day or two before literally my entire day putting together the training, the courses, the curriculum, whatever I need to where I you know, I’ll work from, you know, sunup to sundown actually way past sundown most of the time, and definitely not at sunup – I’m not an early riser, but anyway, I work the whole day of you know, putting together what I need to because when I know that there are people on the line who care about what I’m putting together, I feel compelled to do the work. If I’m the only person who who bears the consequence of the work not getting done half the time –

Richard Matthews 16:15
You’re gonna watch Netflix.

Zach Hammer 16:16
Yeah, exactly. It’s like, Okay. Yeah. You know, the release of Rise of Skywalker is more worth watching right now than me working on this business system. So one of the things that I have done is I’ve set it up, so that I have more times where people are relying on me. So I – every week right now I have a weekly call with my inner circle. My inner circle is the group in my business that that you know, they pay monthly in order to get access to all of my courses and training, and then also to get on this weekly call. And then on that weekly call, every week, I need to bring something of value. I need to teach something new, something interesting, something that’ll help these people. And they’re expecting it up knee, right? So I have to come prepared to bring that thing of value. So in doing that part of what that has allowed me to do is now I have built in with my personality, I have people who are relying on me to do the work that’s necessary in my business anyway, was just to create new training, create new information, and to think forwardly about how people can improve their marketing. Whereas if I’m just left to my own devices, sure, I might be, I might be learning new things. I might be creating new strategies, but I’m not creating training around it, right. Like I’m helping people directly, but not –

Richard Matthews 17:36
You’re not actually shipping.

Zach Hammer 17:38
Exactly. So it’s, it’s forced me, you know, having that weekly meeting where I have students there, you know, wanting to hear from me has forced me to actually create the thing. And then in doing that, now I can fairly easily adapt that thing into things that I can sell right into, it’s actual, it’s, it’s like a product. It’s a thing that is content. It’s something that I can sell. Yeah, so that’s one. That’s one one way that that’s that, that has worked.

Richard Matthews 18:06
My favorite thing about that is how you you because your weakness and your strength are tied together, you’re able to use your your desire to have that empathy with other people are like hey, these people are relying on me to overcome your weakness, right your strength overcomes your weakness, right and anyways, I just really like that.

Zach Hammer 18:28
Yeah, and shoot, it worked. I mean, like I can attest as of right now, in terms of like, and it’s not perfect, right? Like all of these things. That’s one of the things that are out there sometimes dealing with this stuff. It’s like a lifelong thing to figure out how you are, how you exist in a way that’s, you know, functional and beneficial to yourself and the world. But, you know, I can attest. Right now I am not doing that weekly call as of October, right? I think October.

Richard Matthews 19:04
Yeah, I think October would have been, would have been when we were up in Oregon. So yeah, that would be that’d be about right.

Zach Hammer 19:09
And it was when we were in Washington is when I had the when I started just you know consistently doing the calls if I remember right. Anyway, yeah so on I think late October is when I started and now without fail. I think I have done a call every week since then producing new content, except for maybe one week, one week, I think I know, I cancelled the appointment. Right, you know, I had something else that came up, which means I don’t know how many weeks that is, but I have, you know, what, so October, November, December, January, February, March, April, we’re in the beginning of May. So that’s, that’s eight months. Let’s let’s pull one of those out because I think it was the end of October and we’re in the beginning of May. So seven times 4.33. It’s around 30. Yeah, so, so around 30, you know, anywhere from 30 to an hour long or more training that I put together, basically, just because I’ve capitalized on the fact that I care about people. So yeah. Whereas before I had, like, I don’t know, I was averaging –

Richard Matthews 20:23
One or two a year?

Zach Hammer 20:25
Yeah, something like that. So, yeah, just by just changing, changing it up so that I had the right incentives in place that actually mattered to me. That’s a big part of it. In terms of shifting, shifting, that problem of not getting paid, because it’s related. Part of what I figured out is I think that most people when they talk about pricing, that they’re full of crap. That what people think of in terms of the right, the right price or the wrong price has very little to do with anything that’s actually reality. It’s based on, I see somebody else is charging this much for something that I think is similar to what I’m doing. So I feel like I need to charge that amount. One of the things that really unlocked being able to actually start asking for for money on these things in in the vein of when I’m less sure of the value is if I adjust the price to a point where it’s like, okay, yeah, it’s like, I may not be able to ask for, you know, two grand for this thing, because I’m not sure if I can, if I can consistently give that much value with this bit of information. But shoot, I can ask for 10 or 20 bucks, like this is easily worth 10 or 20 bucks. And then if you do that consistently, you put together enough systems where you start to see is like, Oh, no, this actually, I’m seeing the results that I’m getting for people. Somebody’s paying for this information. So they actually have some skin in the game. They’re investing in it. So they’re actually going out and using it. And then when they’re using it, they’re getting this result. Like Okay, now I could see this thing is worth more and you can start increasing your pricing. So anyway, all that is to say, I think I think people get hung up on pricing. Especially if you’re like me, where sometimes the pricing could be the thing that holds you back. It’s like you don’t ask for any money, because you feel like it’s wrong if you don’t ask for, you know, some arbitrary number. But really, it’s it you know, done is better than perfect, right? Get out there and ask for a price that you at least feel happy. It was like I delivered enough value in this. And if I get that out to enough people, it’s still worth it. And then over time, you can adapt and put together things that you know, really drive home a lot of value and, and they’re worth charging really high amounts for.

Richard Matthews 22:40
Yeah, pricing is such an interesting discussion. And we probably go all day just talking about how to come up with pricing and things. But I find that that for me when it comes to figuring out pricing. It’s like, I have to be able to cover my costs, whatever those are, and have a margin that makes me happy. If the margin doesn’t make me happy, then I’m not going to show up and do the work that goes into it. So what’s interesting is like the margin that makes me happy with scale changes. Right so I and I’ve noticed that in my business is as I scale things I’m getting I would much rather have a smaller piece of a lot larger pie than a large piece of a small pie. So like as as my business has grown and I’ve grown in my in my my business like I used to be looking at like hey, I want to this is what I get charged for retainers because I’m happy with that margin to put my time in but now that I’ve got like team members and organization that are doing that I can have more people and a smaller portion of that pie for a couple of reasons. One because the cost of labor, but also I can serve more people so I can serve more people and have lower margins and still make the money that I’m interested in making. So for me anyways, I found that my discussions around pricing have always sort of revolved around things like I know need to have a margin that makes me happy. And then realizing that that margin can change as I scale my business and not being locked into, like, this has to be this way, right? Because that’s what they charge or that’s what someone else charges or this is what the value is. So anyways, so anyways,.

Zach Hammer 24:17
Yeah, and that that’s, that’s always been a key thing when I think about pricing too is, is like, it’s funny, like I see this playing out my personality. Sometimes I wish there are aspects of my personality that were different, but I don’t know. So like, like for you, if something is done it wouldn’t make enough money. Your reaction would be I don’t want to do it. Like I just, I would just rather not do it. My –

Richard Matthews 24:44
I’m not gonna do it. It’s not happening.

Zach Hammer 24:46
Yeah, for some reason, my gut reaction is if it’s not worth enough money, I still am gonna do it. I’m just gonna do it for free. So I’m still gonna put the time into it. I just, I just can’t charge for it. And I would rather do the work for free, than than you know, than have to fetch the right price. But if you know, the reality is I mean and this is true for anybody that that’s similar to me or it’s like, where were helping people is a big part of who you are, if you’re really honest with yourself, and this is something that like I’ve become more and more honest with myself, it’s not sustainable. Right? To to continually do that, so I’m finding myself now in more cases saying like, No, I can’t help you for free and it really hurts me to have to say that I can’t help you for paid because I can’t bring the value like I’m not comfortable taking your money for something that I don’t feel like I could I can really bring bring the heat on. But if I can’t make enough of this, then I know I’m gonna lose motivation too, because I know I have a family to feed. I have goals that I need to meet. I have work that I can put my time into that does net – an X amount. So like as you start to become clear on that stuff you do, you start to realize like you know, there are there are times where you have to say no and, and, and … –

Richard Matthews 26:03
What’s interesting and I want to bring this up a little bit, because I think I don’t want to get the people the idea that working for free is a bad thing. Because as entrepreneurs, one of the key aspects of an entrepreneur is your willingness to put money in and not get anything out, especially over the course of time, right? But you realize that you have to do that strategically, where when you are going to put money, put your time into something, you may not immediately see a return for that. Right? It’s not like direct response marketing all the time, where it’s like, I put on an ad and someone responds, and they become business, but there are times in your life and your business when you’re building something or when you’re building a relationship where you are going to put time you’re gonna put effort, maybe even put product output together, because you’re looking at future value. Right. And so just as an example, I have like I have over the course of time and … ever since the economy sort of tanked with COVID-19 stuff. Closed a couple of new clients using a, I’m going to do this for you for free mentality, right? But being strategic about that, like, Hey, you have the, you know, I get a referral from someone, it’s like, they have a specific thing I know I can solve that for them in an hour or two. Right. And I could charge them a piecemeal thing for it, right and make a couple hundred bucks. But what’s better is I can look, I can put that in for free because of future value, right? So I close 2 retainer clients with that over the course of the last few months, where it’s like, Hey, I can solve something for you. Take me an hour of my time, I’ll solve that for you. And they look at that, and like, how much does it cost. I’m like, first ones free, all right, because I’m investing in a relationship that has future value, and they come back and they’re like, holy cow, I need you to help me with other things. And you end up with – in my business. I’m looking for retainer style relationships that last for a long time, right. So that one bit of free effort leads to thousands of dollars of revenue over the course of the year in future value. Right. So I think when it comes to thinking of, you know, it’s not like it’s a negative thing to work for free, it’s just that you have to know how working for free fits strategically into your business.

Zach Hammer 26:19
Right. Yeah. And it’s not a good strategy to just always work for free just because people need the help. But yeah, yeah. So and that definitely happened there’s been times where, where it’s very much the decision of yeah, I think I think there’s value in the relationship. So I’m willing to work on this for free, because long term, there’s drastically more value in a healthy relationship. And part of that is, you know, the reality is like people in the world are really skeptical. But if you can actually show that you can deliver on something, like once you’ve actually delivered on something, you remove all sorts of skepticism. So sometimes it takes that. Sometimes it says, it’s saying I am willing to put in the work up front to show you the results. And then once you’ve seen the result, it’s really easy for you to say yes, I will pay you a percentage of the results that you generate, which is, you know, essentially what those good relationships end up being.

Richard Matthews 28:19
Yeah, I’m actually considering right now, a project that I might do for free for someone because they’re on the cusp of like, really, really big service that’s probably in the millions and in the telemedicine space, because because of what’s going on in the COVID thing, and they’re really struggling with some of their technology stuff. And I’m like I’ve been talking with them for the past couple of months. And like, I’m like, I know, I can solve their technology problem real quick, but they’re not at a point where they could afford to hire me. So I’m like, just in my head going through that conversation, like does it make sense to just solve this problem for them and hand it to them on a silver platter because I know that that would come back in future value. So like, you have to think through those things in your head.

Zach Hammer 29:51
Exactly.

Richard Matthews 29:52
And what’s interesting is that it may not come back in future value and it might still be worth it to give it to them on a silver platter. Right. Because of maybe referrals that they bring, or other things that happen, it might not be them becoming a client or something like that. But it’s like, I know it’s –

Zach Hammer 30:09
Yeah, I was just gonna say and that’s, that’s where that risk tolerance comes into play. Right? Like, like there is a level of saying, like, if you’re, if you’re being honest, and you’re being fair, there are times where you outlay time or effort or capital, and it doesn’t pay off. And so what you try and do is you try and stack it so that even if it doesn’t pay off, like in the way that you expect it or that you hoped that you try and stack things so that it always pays off some way that you learn a new skill, you invest in a relationship, you whatever it is, right, it sets you up to in some way be better off in the future. Right. And yeah, so that like that goes into it. It’s like yeah, you invest in the relationship. And and you play you know, we recently started talking about this you know, you’re playing an infinite game rather than playing a finite game where you realize it’s not did this one thing work, but it’s how does that contribute to the overall game that we’re playing of, of the value in this relationship and what it does in your life and your business in the long run.

Richard Matthews 31:15
Yeah. And if you want to dive more into that, look up Game Theory. Maybe we’ll put a link to some Game Theory stuff in the show notes. But yeah, when you start looking at your business as an infinite instead of a finite, you start making decisions more intelligently. And it’s, to that point, as we’ve grown, as business owners, we started to look at things better, right, and be able to make better decisions about where it makes sense to have free work versus I need to get paid for this work? And other things, right. Anyways, it’s a huge discussion. I don’t know how to really tie a bow on that. But I do want to move on a little bit in the – in our conversation. There we go. So my next question for you has to do with your Common Enemy. And your Common Enemy is specific to the people that you work with in your business, right? So in your case real estate agents. If you could remove one thing from their lives that you know is holding them back that you’re constantly like beating your head against the wall going, Dear God, I wish all the agents that I worked with just understood this thing or do this thing differently, they would get better, cheaper, faster, higher degree of results. What is that Common Enemy for you that you’re constantly fighting against with your clients?

Zach Hammer 32:27
Oh, that’s a good question. I I don’t think I’ve ever thought about it that way. It’s because like, I see I see it as I see. I see a lot of enemies, right. Like I see a lot of different things. I don’t know if I’ve ever if I’ve ever boiled it down to what what are the common connecting –

Richard Matthews 32:44
Like the common threads?

Zach Hammer 32:46
Right, I’d say I’d say probably the biggest the biggest thing is actually what we just talked about, that real estate agents, the biggest the biggest problems and failures that they run into are when they play a short term game, a finite game rather than playing an infinite game. Because the reality is that your business will fail as a real estate agent, if you play a finite game, you’ll you’ll burn your bridges and cause yourself drastically more problems, if all you’re focused on is finding that next immediate deal, and you don’t think about what your business looks like in the long run, right? And, and that, that services in all sorts of different ways. So it services in emails, where when you send an email and all you’re focused on is talking about real estate and talking about your listings and talking about that next transaction and trying to find the people who are interested right now. Because what you end up doing is you either bore most of them to death or you know, you piss off half of them by being aggressive in the wrong ways. And then similarly, if your marketing is only focused on who’s ready to do a transaction, right, this second it’s gonna be really hard for you to capture that business in a profitable way, because it’s hard, it’s hard to find those people there’s a long journey. And so, you know, a successful real estate team, real estate company, real estate agent, they look at their business as a long term as a long term thing. And so instead of sending emails that are designed to, you know, try and you know, essentially ravage their lists for any resource that they can get out of it. Instead, they look at it as a symbiotic relationship where they’re feeding value into it, they’re staying top of mind, you know, long term, it’s allowing them to keep that relationship alive. So that when that person thinks of real estate, they think of that real estate agent. Yeah, I’d say, does that make sense in terms of –

Richard Matthews 34:46
It does, it does. And I remember, I remember specifically when you and I were working together on some ad stuff, one of one of your old clients mentioned this to me and he was like, the leads that we generate today are gonna be business two years from now. Right and that’s the way he thought of his business was he’s like, I’m looking at a two year pipeline of like I need to generate leads that are going to close into sales and buying leads two years from now. Right? And, and so like for you, what you’re saying is that like real estate agents are sort of focusing myopically like, you know, an average deal takes three months to close, I need to like leads today deal in three months, right? Instead of looking at a, you know, what is the long term impact on my business of focusing on closing the next deal now? Right, right. Instead of how do I build relationships that spin off deals over the course of a long term.

Zach Hammer 35:39
Exactly, yeah. Because if you know, in all sorts of things it causes you to make really bad decisions whereas for instance, right now, there’s a lot of weird stuff going on in the world. Right. The markets are acting really weird if you’re paying attention to real estate, there’s a lot of like major investors who have pulled out or and are sitting on the sidelines. Opendoor Zillow’s iBuyer program, basically all the iBuyers have pulled back. And they’re not making offers on homes. If you don’t know what a iBuyer is, it doesn’t really matter. Just know that it’s companies that buy lots of properties at scale. But like none of them are buying anything. You know, the way that pricing has gone like in some markets, there’s been a lot of price reductions. So we might be looking at a shift where the prices start going down. If I was a real estate agent right now, and I just wholeheartedly told everybody, it’s like now’s the best time to buy and like without any context or consideration, just because I’m focused on the right deals. What you ended up doing is when you don’t give people context and you don’t pay attention to where they are and what their needs are. You end up burning that relationship. It’s like sure you might get a deal right now. But what are you going to do when that person feels like you essentially led them into a decision that was not, not for their best outcome, that they bought at the top of the market, not understanding the consequences of that, like, and we don’t know, like, nobody really knows exactly what’s going to go on with the market. But, you know, like, but if that happens, and you don’t you don’t convey and communicate long term like, this is why I’m thinking this, this is why I think it’s the best decision. Ultimately I leave it up to you, this is how I think it fits in with your goals. I’m like, let’s, let’s sign let’s get it done, let’s do the deal. You burn those relationships. And then instead of like having a lifelong relationship where that person is sending you business, you know, they’re they’re sending you their kids business, they’re sending you their friends business, and you’re building a momentum, you’re having to go and essentially swindle each and every person to try and find a deal instead of actually like building a long term thing that that actually gets easier the longer you do it. So yeah, anyway, rant over.

Richard Matthews 37:52
No, that makes a lot of sense and I know it’s something that you’ve talked about a lot in in that space is learning how, like that’s one of the things that you focus on teaching in your real estate space. How can you build a business that’s focused long term that generates deals now? Right? Like so you just have to understand there’s a way to do it that you’re generating deals now, that’s not sacrificing the long term. So anyways, if you’re interested in that and you’re in the real estate space that’s my plug for the Real Estate Growth Hackers Inner Circle, go check it out.

Zach Hammer 38:20
https://realestategrowthhackers.com/

Richard Matthews 38:23
The Hero Show we’ll be right back.

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So my next question for you is your Driving Force. Right so if you’re Common Enemy is the thing you fight against, your Driving Forces is the thing you fight for. I say on the show all the time just like Spider Man fights to save New York or Batman fights to save Gotham or Google fights to index and categorize all the world’s information. What is it that you fight for at Real Estate Growth Hackers?

Zach Hammer 40:13
I fight for real estate agents, who essentially as you know, as, as a group of people have set out to achieve their dreams, right? For most real estate agents, it’s their second maybe third career right? Like most little kids don’t grow up thinking, Hey, I’m going to be a real estate agent. You know, people end up kind of backing into it as a career even though I backed into it, you know, as a career, right? Like, I didn’t seek out real estate, it was a job opportunity. And then I became a, you know, I humbly I became some level of an expert in it right. And so, I seek to help those people who are fighting for their dreams, fighting for their goals. I seek to help enable them to move into this world where I think the competition is getting drastically better. You have companies like Zillow. Companies like Opendoor. Companies like like like Redfin, there’s actually, I forget what it is, it’s something like it’s over like a trillion dollars has entered the real estate market, all for the goal of trying to like create a better, a better environment, whether it’s, you know, better search, better transactions, just there’s like a ton of money that has entered the space. And as a result, like a lot of companies, marketing is getting a lot better. A lot of the like, competing companies, marketing is getting a lot better. So essentially, like where I’m trying to help people is I’m trying to help the average real estate agent be able to weather that storm, to be able to come through it, get the skills that they need to have the marketing that allows them to keep a business alive, to thrive, to find those deals and to be able to hold on to their business, right. And, like I don’t necessarily see those others you know, the other companies as bad or anything? I think the reality is, real estate transactions are incredibly complicated, I think there are, it is very likely that a real estate agent is going to be at the center of real estate transactions for a very long time. Just because of how hard it is to do it better than a human can. So I seek to help those people who will ultimately give you know, the public, the consumers who are doing the real estate transactions, who will give them better results, who will give them something that results in less heartaches that allows them to navigate those waters effectively. I want those people to win. So I’m trying to help them to do so because you need good marketing to find those people, to find those relationships, to be able to serve those people. So yeah, that’s uh, that’s that’s who I’m trying to help.

Richard Matthews 42:46
Awesome. I love it. And it’s, it’s an interesting business too. Because it’s great like real estate is one of those few businesses that you can get into that have a really low barrier to entry. So lots of people can get into it and have a huge, huge upside potential, that when you build a business correctly, you can build a big multi-million dollar company and help and serve a lot of people over the way, which is why it’s attractive as a business. So it’s a cool space to be in and to be serving. And, you know, real estate is one of the big five, right, the big five largest industries in the world, it’s not going anywhere, right? There’s always going to be real estate transactions, maybe we eventually colonize other planets and start to become more commoditized. But for the time being, we have a limited resource of space and there’s always going to be the buying and selling of real estate. So I think I think helping in that space is a very cool thing. So Next Next question for you is more on the practical side. I call this the HERO’s Tool Belt. Maybe you got a big magical hammer like Thor or a bulletproof vest like your neighborhood police officer or maybe you just really love how Evernote helps you organize your thoughts, what is one or two of your favorite tools that you use everyday in your business that you’re like I couldn’t do what I do without this tool?

Zach Hammer 44:06
That’s a hard one. Because I’d say in terms of tool belts, part of what makes me well equipped to help real estate agents with marketing is that my tool belt kind of looks like Batman.

Richard Matthews 44:18
Nice.

Zach Hammer 44:19
I have a tool for everything. And I geek out about them. And I play with lots of different tools. So yeah. What is what is the tool in my tool belt? So it doesn’t need to be specifically like an app? Or can I can I go a little bit more, a little bit more –

Richard Matthews 44:37
You can go as meta as you want.

Zach Hammer 44:39
Okay, so probably the best tool in my tool belt. And this goes back to my superpower is my network. So my network is the thing that connects me to the best resources at any given time that I might need both for helping people but also for solving problems in my own business. My network is responsible for most of the business that I see I still get, I can still track a lot of the business that I’ve been able to generate back to, you know, relationships and and things that have come from that. So in terms of a tool that I’ve cultivated and use day after day, my network is the thing that I continually go back into, to find things like Evernote and Trello. And you know, Zapier and ManyChat, and I don’t know if we could go on for – lots of things.

Richard Matthews 45:36
It’s always interesting to me how often on this show entrepreneurs who have a certain level of success when you ask them what their favorite tools are, they’re very metal level tools, things like their calendar, or one of my favorite episodes the guy guy was on the show mentioned it was his, his notepad. His notepad was like a 17 by 19 piece of paper he kept on his desk, right and he was like, that’s my biggest tool. So in terms of your network, networking and network, like networking is one of the things that like, it’s almost like a bad word. Right? Because people, people look at networking like a thing that they have to do. And they have to check it off the box. Like I went to my BNI meeting, and I handed out 50 business cards; networking accomplished for the day. Right? And I know because I know you’re really well, but that’s not how you look at networking. So if you would take a couple of minutes and talk about sort of how you think about your network and how you build it, and why that’s different than what a lot of people think networking is.

Zach Hammer 46:34
Yeah, so. So really simply, I’d say, I’d say there’s a few components. And I bet if we, if we thought through it, we could probably systemize it in a way that other people can can leverage. So first and foremost, you have to have, you have to have ways that you are finding new people to connect with. Okay, so that you’re finding opportunities where more people enter your ecosystem, right like you. You kind of need a flow of people coming in and out of your world.

Richard Matthews 47:05
So just as an example, I host a podcast and invite new people into my world all the time that happens to be most of the time my ideal clients.

Zach Hammer 47:12
There you go, so like that that’s a perfect example it could be it could be something like that it could be that you participate in a group frequently like in a Facebook group or in a LinkedIn group, it could be you know, it, yeah, it could be that you proactively go out and you seek like teaching opportunities or whatever right like it could be any sort of things it could be –

Richard Matthews 47:30
Or speaking on stages.

Zach Hammer 47:31
Yeah, it could be that like you consistently go to meetups where shifting groups of people come into you so you find new relationships could be shot, it could be church, right? It could be that you consistently go to a weekly religious, you know, event that, you know, maybe it’s normally the same people, but occasionally you get new people and maybe it’s a kind of a combination of all these things, right? Like where you have these things where you go out and there are people that you may not already know, okay, so that That’s step one, you got to you gotta kind of have a way of finding new people that you don’t know already. The step two, is that you are going to care about the people you talk to. So –

Richard Matthews 48:14
And not for …

Zach Hammer 48:16
Yeah, not not, you know, not not just pretending. So you get something out of it, but you actually like you care about these people. And when when you care about people that does a few things, you you systematically learn about them, right, you find out what they’re up to, what they want out of life, what they’re good at, how they can help people and, and what the what their, what their trajectory is, where are they heading? What are they? What are they looking to achieve in this world? Now that opens up the third step, which is essentially to help as many of those people with the things that they’re working on as you can and that’s done in a few different ways. So in our 3rd step in this process that could be connecting them to tools or resources that you think would help them. If you learn about a piece of software. If you see an article, if you hear an interview, if you read a book that you think would help that person in their journey, because you understand who they are and what they’re looking to achieve. Well, what you do is you say, here’s this thing, I think it would help you, you should check it out.

Richard Matthews 49:24
And like this, specifically, it’ll help you get where you want to go. Right. And I know that you want to get there because I’ve asked you because I care.

Zach Hammer 49:32
Because I understand. Yeah, I understand who you are. I get what you’re up to. And when you’re telling them this is the thing that they should check out. It should be in the context of, I know this aspect of you or your personality or your goals. I think you would appreciate this thing. The other way and probably the best way, is when the tool that you’re connecting them to is another person. Where you can say this person that I have learned something about, because I care about them. And I want to help them achieve their results, match up with this person and what they’re looking to do and what they want out of life. And when you connect those two people, that’s where magic happens. Because all you have to do is just connect two people that can help each other and can make great things happen in the world. And in doing that, you get to be seen as somebody who is incredibly valuable. And so when when the opportunity comes up, where you might be the person who can help connect them to the thing that they’re wanting to do in life, you’ve already brought enough value through connecting them to tools and articles and apps and things that they find valuable, and people because people are really nine times out of 10 like an app is cool, but like if you really want to make shifts in your life and it’s generally done for the people. Yeah, so connecting those people, those people like that, that’s how you do it. So do that consistently, find new people to connect to, care about them, learn about them, find out what they want out of life, connect those people to the things that will help them or connect them to the people that will help them. You do that enough. That’s networking, and you build that up. And then you get like this massive momentum of people who also want to help you. And yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s magical.

Richard Matthews 51:21
Okay, so within the next six months or so, we’re going to have a course on that. Probably should at some point, but my my, the thing I want to add to that is that networking is not and it never will be a, I’ve done this thing, and I get this result. Right. It’s not a direct response type strategy. Right? It is a long term. You actually care about people. It impacts your business over the long term. It seems to be a recurring theme in our discussion is there’s’ you know, you have to look at your business and life from the long game. And what’s interesting is like if you and I look back over the last 10 years of our business where we started out as nobodies and nothing’s Right. in any space, that you look at where we are now, right, the kind of like, networking has been at the central point of everything we’ve done from the very beginning of our businesses. And it’s put us to the point where both of us are at the top of our game in our spaces, where like, we can get into pretty much any circle we want to get into and get invited to places. And it’s interesting to me that, like, the referrals that I get nowadays, are from people that are doing big things in big ways in cool, like cool areas that are at the top of their game. Right. And that that happens over the long term because people – and it’s interesting people don’t – you know like people who really understand networking, don’t connect down. They connect up.

Zach Hammer 52:45
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, you connect, you connect somebody to somebody that you think is smarter than you. Because you think that they’re better, they’re more likely to be able to help.

Richard Matthews 52:56
And what that does over the course of time, is as you connect people and connect up, you start getting connected and getting picked up and you start ending up in circles that are at the top of their game and whatever space you’re in. So anyways, it’s really really powerful. And we’re gonna have to cut that little section out where you gave people the three steps because probably the most valuable thing we’ve said today. I got a couple questions left, this one’s pretty simple. Your own Personal Heroes right Frodo and Gandalf. Luke had Obi Wan. Robert Kiyosaki had his Rich Dad. Who were some of your heroes, were they real life mentors, speakers, authors, peers who were a couple years ahead of you, and how important were they to what you’ve accomplished so far?

Zach Hammer 53:39
Yeah, it’s that’s that’s, that’s interesting. I don’t know I’d have to step back and think through, think through because like, the reality is, this might be part of what plays into my personality. I don’t really have many people I would consider heroes in the traditional sense because I look up to lots of people in lots of ways like, I see, because I try to strive to understand, like, where people are and who they are and what makes them tick. I get influenced by a lot of different people for different things in different ways. I see what people are good at and I take from that what I feel like I can leverage to make myself better, right? To inspire me further. So like for instance, one example Steve Jobs for me is somebody that has, you know, has been an inspiration but there’s a lot of aspects of who Steve Jobs is that I don’t want at all. Who he was right. Like I like I admire the difference that he was able to make in the world but, some of the ways that he did it, aren’t in alignment with who I am. Elon Musk similarly, like he’s doing really cool big interesting things, but I think I would crumble if I was that person. Right? Like, that’s, that’s not like I don’t want I don’t want to set up a world where I’m running, like, how many businesses is he up to at this point? Like, I don’t know, 37. like, like that that’s, you know, I don’t aspire to be him but there’s aspects of what he’s doing and how he looks at the kinds of products that he creates the kinds of businesses that he creates That that that inspire me in certain ways. Shoot, like, you know, people in my own circles, my mom, I look up to my mom and aspects of who she is, right? You and how you’ve run your business. I look up to you in a lot of ways. We have a you know, we have a friend I don’t know has Leanna been on this show yet?

Richard Matthews 55:41
Leanna has been on the show.

Zach Hammer 55:42
Yeah, so like, you know, like her like she’s like, every time I talk to her about business business topics. Like I feel like an infant child in relation to like, how you actually structure a business and do things like an adult. But I so yeah, Like, I know there’s there’s lots of people there’s lots of people and I think so probably I probably what I was just what I was just gonna say is I very much because of how I look at people I am able to look at the best aspects of what somebody has done but being fully eyes open aware of the negative things, the things that aren’t great and like still be okay with that. So my heroes aren’t people that I necessarily picture as perfect or who exactly I want to aspire to. But I see heroic things in lots of people, if that makes sense.

Richard Matthews 56:43
So I actually tend to be in the same boat. I have two things I want to point out about sort of just that whole discussion. First one is because we’re both geeks, and to bring back the Ender’s Game series just because we went well. One of the things that Ender Ender says in the book is that when you really learn to understand someone, you can no longer hate them. Right? Like because that you, you understand them at their core, right? And you can see where they’re coming from and where they’re like, it’s one of the reasons why like you and I have such interesting discussions on politics because we have we come down pretty solidly on our things to go. But we can look at someone on the other side of where we stand and be like, I see how they get there, like I understand them at their core and who they are and why they think that way. Right? And you realize that most people are not acting the way that they’re doing because they’re some evil incarnate person that wants other people to suffer. Right, right like that. Most people, the overwhelming majority of people are acting in ways that they think are in alignment with their beliefs.

Right.

Zach Hammer 57:49
And it might be wrong.

Yeah, even even even when people are acting like assholes half the time it’s because they’re, they’re afraid or they’re trying to deal with some trauma from earlier in their life or something, it’s like you, it doesn’t necessarily justify the action but you can, you can at least see is like you understand how, how, how somebody could get to that that place in their life.

Richard Matthews 58:10
Yeah, and it’s one of my favorite things about you is your, I call it aggressive optimism, right? Someone like cuts you off on the freeway and you’re like, that person is probably trying to get the hospital hospital for their baby to be born. And, and I think that goes right back to that empathy discussion. But the second, the second part of that, that I want to point out is that like when one of my mentors growing up, mentioned to me that you should only ever take advice from someone in areas that you, you, you appreciate their result. Right. And that doesn’t mean that you appreciate or take advice from them in every aspect, right? If I’m remembering correctly that might have come from Robert Kiyosaki. I can’t remember, don’t quote me on that. But I think it might have been Robert Kiyosaki’s books but he talked about the like, if you have someone in your life who has a really good relationship with Christ, maybe you follow their example there, but right and the same kind of thing, maybe you have someone who’s got really good parenting skills and their kids turn out the way you want. So you follow them in that area, you got someone else who’s got really good skills and business and you follow them for those things. But it’s interesting because you have to sort of choose your, the people that you’re looking at, that you’re looking up to, based on the results in the area that you’re interested in getting results in yourself, right. So anyways, that’s, I think that’s an important aspect and looking at, like, you can’t just hold someone up as this is my hero in every aspect of life, but you have people that are heroes in your life in particular areas. Right. And you look up to then you learn from them. So anyways.

Zach Hammer 59:49
Yeah, absolutely. And I think I think the other side of that is, and I won’t go into details on this, but I mean, you you know, you know some of my story. Sometimes if you hold somebody up in too high of esteem, and and and you come face to face with the reality of how human everybody is, that can cause problems and cause things to come crashing down, that don’t necessarily need to. Like when you can comfortably say, there are aspects of somebody that even if they’re flawed, that there are aspects of people that are heroic or there are aspects of people that that you can aspire to that you can see the good in. That that means that you are going to be much more resilient when you come faced with reality that we are humans, that we are broken, and that people make mistakes and have flaws and that sometimes those flaws have very strong powerful consequences that you don’t necessarily like you know, like you said, you don’t need to throw the baby out with the bathwater, that it doesn’t mean that everything that that person did or or stood for or whatnot is, is is worthless. Right that there are , there are aspects and goods that you could take from people, even if they’re flawed. And even if those flaws are sometimes horrible.

Richard Matthews 1:01:10
It sounds like we should get that message out to all the people who need to vote. Right? Seems like a thing that like we’re currently having a problem with that understanding in our politics. That’s like, hey, this one person did this one thing that was bad a while back, therefore, everything about them is the worst. And you can take that any direction you want politically right now because it applies to everyone. We’re all fallen.

Zach Hammer 1:01:35
Yeah, my, my, my worldview is that there was only one person who’s ever walked this earth who was perfect. And we we –

Richard Matthews 1:01:43
Then we crucified Him.

Zach Hammer 1:01:45
Yeah. So is everybody else. I don’t know what we could expect exactly, but nobody else is going to be perfect. So you know, so take take, take the good where you can try and give grace in the rest of the in the rest of the the places that you can as well but uh, but yeah, so anyway, when you ask about heroes you know that that’s a that’s a that’s a big component of it to me is that nobody’s perfect but but in just about anybody there’s something I can find that is heroic.

Richard Matthews 1:02:15
Awesome. Well With that, let’s bring it home for our listeners and talk about one last thing, the top one or two principles or actions that you put into practice regularly that you think contribute to the success and influence you enjoy today, maybe something you wish you had known when we started out together all those years ago.

Zach Hammer 1:02:29
Yeah, I’d say I’d say it goes back to the same principle of, of what we talked about for you know, who I am. I know that it is incredibly powerful and valuable, not just from a you know, a purpose and meaning and, and like, like fulfillment and happiness level, but also, there is an ROI and a financial component to caring deeply about to people and and I think if you if you leverage that if you leverage the fact that, that actually caring about the results that you generate for somebody else, caring about the impact that that you make on somebody else’s life, that either you know, that your business makes, that your personal actions make that that is that is worth consideration, it is worth effort. And that it can, you know, pay off financially as well. I’d say that’s probably one of the key principles and then the other one is in that vein, know that your life, your business is not, you know, a quarter by quarter thing, it is it is the sum total of all of the actions and activity that you put into it. It is not what happens in the next five minutes. It’s the impact that you make over the life of you and sometimes even for the sake of your business. It might change names, it might change purpose, it might change identity. But yet you’re still playing the same overall infinite game of life that you know that is worth playing well and worth thinking about long term consequences and long term you know, impacts of are you existing in this world in the way that you want to? Is your business doing the things in this world that you want to? Are you making the impacts in this world that you want to make? So yeah, those are probably the two things that care about people and play an infinite game.

Richard Matthews 1:04:33
So my first thought on the the care about people is that a lot of a lot of, especially as new entrepreneurs, we tend to and I remember being this way, I care more about the money that I’m going to receive instead of the result I’m going to give, right because you have to make the money in order to feed yourself. So it’s an understandable way to feel, but you have to flip that and you have to flip that to the I care more about the result I’m going to give you, the finances will take care of themselves. So that’s a hard principle to wrap your head around. And I know for both of us, it took us years to sort of figure that out. So the last thing we do on the show is the HERO’s Challenge. And you know what this is because you helped me sort of develop it. But it’s gonna be more difficult for you because we run in the same circles and we know all the same people. So HERO’s Challenge is basically this: you have someone in your life, in your network that you think has a cool entrepreneurial story, who are their first names are fine, and why do you think they should come share their story on our show? So the difficult part here is do you have someone in your network that I don’t already know and hasn’t already been on the show that you think should come share their story?

Zach Hammer 1:05:38
I have somebody that I think would be potentially really interesting to get on the show. Maybe less in the entrepreneurial aspect specifically in the traditional way. But I think that Mark on your team, if he has not been on the show yet I think he could be a really interesting guest in terms of people hearing his story, hearing what he’s up to with your company. The the difference that that’s making just all of that, I think I think he’s rising up to be an incredibly interesting, powerful person. And I think that would be a story that would be worth worth sharing. It’s not necessarily in the same vein as some of the guests that you bring on. But I think it would be a really, really great guest for the show.

Richard Matthews 1:06:31
Absolutely. So just for those of you who are listening, Mark was my first hire in my business. He actually runs and manages everything that you guys don’t see on the back end, right. He runs this entire podcast, he runs all the stuff for getting our guests on, he runs all the stuff here and he actually hires and trains and works with my other employees. So I actually agree, I think that’d be a really interesting interview to bring him on. So Mark, when you are editing this, you’ve been challenged to come on the show. So you’re gonna have to push yourself on. And we’ll –

Zach Hammer 1:07:03
And you know how to do it too.

Richard Matthews 1:07:06
Because you set all this stuff up. So with that, that basically wraps our interview, Zach. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Last question: where can people find you? That’s the big one. And more importantly, who are the right types of people to reach out and say, Hey, you know what, Zach, I need your help.

Zach Hammer 1:07:23
Yeah, so the best place if, if you are a real estate professional, I so generally that means real estate agent, real estate team or real estate broker. Those are those are kind of the keys but related if you are, you know, a loan officer or in the in the lending space or if you are a, you know, in the title world, if you’re if you’re involved in the real estate space, then then you could check us out at https://realestategrowthhackers.com/ , that’s probably one of the best places. From there you can find us on on Facebook And Instagram and you know, probably in the future if, if you find this in the future and there’s some new social media site or whatnot, probably there as well but https://realestategrowthhackers.com/ and then secondarily, feel free to connect with me on on Facebook or LinkedIn, I tend to be fairly active in terms of of connecting to people who seem to, you know, be related to this to this world of things that I do. I am very proactive about, you know, not only helping real estate agents and, and real estate professionals, but also folks who run digital agencies and that kind of thing who want perspective on the real estate world who just want some help in terms of running their business. So you know I very much care about people. So if you feel like connecting and if you feel like having a relationship with me would be a worthwhile thing for you, then yeah, I recommend for you to reach out my name. My full name is Zachary Hammer. So that’s uh, that’s how you can find me on Facebook. As of right now I’ve got a really goofy really goofy avatar picture that’s me with my mouth wide open that actually Richard here took a picture that I use as my avatar. So it stands out pretty readily. But uh, but yeah, feel free to connect with me.

Richard Matthews 1:09:12
Yeah. And if I can take just a second to plug you a bit, one of the things that I … because I’ve sort of helped you develop and put some of these things together, if you’re in that space, you need to check out the Real Estate Growth Hackers Inner Circle, that is your monthly, you know, sort of mastermind for real estate agents. And I’ve seen the training that you’ve put together in there, helped you sort of develop your foundational piece that I think is just brilliant in thinking about how real estate agents look at their business over the long term. And if you really want to change your business and build a real estate business that’s going to be solid and able to stand the test of all of the stuff that’s happening in the real estate space right now. Your best bet is to be in that Real Estate Growth Hackers Inner Circle and learn some of that cutting edge stuff. So that’s my heartless plugs. So again, thank you so much for coming on the show, Zach, do you have any final words of wisdom before I hit this stop record button?

Zach Hammer 1:10:11
No, I think I think those final two, those final two principles of, you know, care about people and play an infinite game. I think regardless of where you are, if you if you if you bring those things to your business and your entrepreneurial journey, it’s it’s it’s hard to go wrong

Transcribed by https://otter.ai