Episode 062 – Emily Kumler Kaplan

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Automated Transcription

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Richard Matthews  

Hello and welcome back to the HERO Show. I am live 

 

On the line with Emily Kumler Kaplan. Are you there, Emily? 

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

Hi.

 

Richard Matthews  

Awesome. Glad to have you here. Let me do a quick 

 

Introduction for you. I’ve got it over here on my other screen. 

 

So if I’m looking at the way it’s; Emily, you are an 

 

Award-winning investigative journalist as ABC News staffer, 

 

Newspaper reporter, columnist, magazine writer. You got 

 

Inside the minds of murderers, world leaders, celebrities, 

 

Business innovators, and everyone in between. Your fascination 

 

Is with how our personal narratives play a major role 

 

In our experiences and makes you a captivating writer 

 

And speaker. You’ve contributed to the 

 

New York Times, Boston Globe, Boston Magazine, 

 

Good Morning America, New York Daily News, 

 

Cosmopolitan Magazine, and the Daily Beast,

 

And other media outlets. You also write a weekly health column 

 

For Boston Magazine. You’ve got quite a star-studded list 

 

Of places you’ve been in.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

Yep.

 

Richard Matthews  

I guess to start off with, what I’d like to find out is what is it 

 

That you’re known for? What’s your business like now? 

 

What is it that you actually; do you run a business outside 

 

Of your journalism? Or is it just the journalism that you do 

 

For work now? What’s your business look like? 

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

Right now, it’s sort of funny. I feel like the last year 

 

Has been sort of like my coming out party, because 

 

For a long time, I was a journalist. And also separately, 

 

I would sort of take breaks from journalism to run 

 

Startup companies. I run two companies, and one of the ones 

 

That I’m running now is called Prime Fitness and Nutrition. 

 

It’s sort of sister to that is a podcast called Empowered Health. 

 

Both are really focused on women’s health. We have three 

 

Brick and mortar locations that are the Prime Fitness locations, 

 

With about 120 clients in each, and they’re really geared 

 

Towards middle aged women who are trying to 

 

Reclaim health and lose weight. The podcast is really taking 

 

A lot of the work we’ve done in the gyms and open it up 

 

To a wider audience. What we’ve learned is that when 

 

Women go to the doctor most of the information that they 

 

Are getting is not actually based on female bodies. 

 

It’s the most of the research. Most of the clinical trials 

 

Are really done on men. And women’s bodies are quite 

 

Different than men. The hormonal regulatory system 

 

Is quite different. We get different diseases and 

 

Different proportions. We present different symptoms, but yet 

 

We’re often given the same treatment. When the treatment 

 

Doesn’t work for women, people act stunned. Then the deeper 

 

You get into this, the more you realize, why are you stunned? 

 

Why are you making the assumption that our bodies 

 

Are actually the same? They’re not. For me, this has really 

 

Become a nice marriage of both backgrounds. The other 

 

Startup company that I worked on was based in 

 

Cambridge, Massachusetts, and then in Kuwait. I did 

 

Some traveling in the Middle East for that. It had nothing 

 

To do with journalism. I mean, I had to be able 

 

To be resourceful. I actually think there’s a lot of crossover 

 

Which we could definitely talk about between 

 

Entrepreneurial endeavors and journalism. For me, it 

 

Doesn’t feel like a stretch. But I feel like people are always 

 

Very confused. They’re like, “Are you a journalist? Or are you a business lady?”

 

Richard Matthews  

They work together well.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

They work together. The podcast is doing so well, which I love because I feel like 

 

The more women have this real 

 

Evidence-based information; the more women can have 

 

Informed conversations with their doctors. Many of them 

 

Don’t even understand these sex differences. The more they can 

 

Really navigate the very complex landscape of our healthcare system.

 

Richard Matthews  

The healthcare system is a really interesting place. Because 

 

There is and has been for a lot of years, doctors were put 

 

In a position of authority because of schooling they have that 

 

The general population doesn’t have. It was like you go into 

 

A doctor’s office. The doctor is God and the patient is his underlings.

 

You just listen to what they say. Then, what we’ve come 

 

To see over the last 10 years or so, is that doctors are fallible 

 

And human like the rest of us. You don’t learn everything there 

 

Is to know in medical school. You learn the things that are 

 

Taught to you. And if it’s not included in your education; you don’t know it. 

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

And that in some ways; there’s nothing wrong with that. 

 

The idea that you should acknowledge that you 

 

Don’t know everything. Super important.

 

Richard Matthews  

I did a bunch of journalism and some work 

 

In a sexual health space for men with regard to circumcision. 

 

One of the things I found out in that course of study is 

 

The US American Medical Association and their training systems. 

 

There’s 46 different training regimens that you can go through 

 

For human physiology. 45 out of 46 of them teach male anatomy 

 

With circumcision being an assumption of birth 

 

In baby boys. They don’t teach doctors in America, what 

 

The foreskin’s purpos is. Or what it does. Or any of the things 

 

For it. They’re just like, “This is a foreskin, and this is 

 

How you cut it off.” The overwhelming majority of 

 

American doctors don’t even know how to deal with or look at, 

 

The way a male body is actually born. It’s one of those things 

 

That really surprised me about our American education system 

 

For doctors. It made me realize: that applies in 

 

A lot of different ways. You go in thinking doctors know everything 

 

And you realize doctors know what they’re taught.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

That’s right. What they’re taught is so limited. When we 

 

Launched the podcast, one of the goals that I had, 

 

I was a tech reporter for a while. I had this repeated 

 

Experience what I would call women who were the authority 

 

On whatever I was writing about. They would say, 

 

“Thanks so much. But I think you should really talk to this 

 

Male colleague of mine.” And I would be like, “All right.” 

 

I’ve never asked a guy to an interview and had him say, 

 

“No, you should talk to this woman,” or I almost never turned 

 

Down for an interview. With this, I was like, “Let’s try to see 

 

If we can find more female researchers to talk about it.”

 

What’s so fascinating is that it’s so heavily loaded 

 

On female sources. In part because what we’ve learned is that 

 

Women go to med school, and they start learning about stuff. 

 

And they’re like, “That’s interesting. That really doesn’t apply to me.” 

 

Or, “That hasn’t been my experience,” or, “My mom had 

 

Heart disease, but it didn’t show up when she went to 

 

The cath lab.” Or some other anecdotal experience that 

 

Has informed them to challenge what they learned in med school. 

 

Then they do really well in med school. They get out. 

 

They follow the status quo of what they’re supposed to do. 

 

They build a name for themselves. Then when they can 

 

Get enough money to fund the studies on women and

 

Heart disease or menopa usal changes. Or major things that 

 

Are important for women’s long term health, longevity experiences, 

 

All of that; that’s what they do. In terms of looking at this;

 

Everything from we did a really great episode on women 

 

And weed, which was looking at how THC impacts 

 

Women differently. Especially, when you’re ovulating. 

 

You’re more likely to have a four times heightened high, which 

 

The researcher basically said is like probably true for alcohol. 

 

It’s definitely true for opioids, but nobody’s telling young girls 

 

When they’re learning how to drink or they’re going to their 

 

First party. Like, you should know where you are in your 

 

Menstrual cycle because you might puke your guts out. 

 

If you’re ovulating, and you start drinking. Nobody really knew 

 

Any of this stuff. But she started looking at sex differences 

 

And how it interplays with estrogen and other hormones, testosterone. 

 

And really there was this big sex. We see that in every episode.

 

It’s incredibly fascinating and exciting because there’s 

 

More women graduating now from med school than men. 

 

You think we’ve got to even this out.

 

Richard Matthews  

It’s really fascinating because there’s so much 

 

That we don’t know. One of my favorite things that’s happening;

 

I grew up in the in the early 90s. I remember, a lot of things 

 

About the government and talking about our food. 

 

What’s healthy food. In my lifetime, eggs have gone 

 

From being healthy to unhealthy to healthy to unhealthy, 

 

4 or 5 times. Because nobody knows. Where it’s coming down. 

 

It’s like what we’re finding out is that different foods 

 

Affect different people differently. Based on things like 

 

Gender, gene makeup and race even.

 

A healthy diet for me, is not a healthy diet for you.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I feel like I would push back on that a little bit. I think the 

 

Standard American diet is such crap. Getting off of all the 

 

Processed foods is good for everybody. Then if you’re really trying 

 

To dial it in some way where you’re a high performing athlete 

 

Versus just somebody who has a normal output and is looking 

 

To be thin or fed or look good or whatever. Maybe you do 

 

Different things. But I actually think the reason that we say 

 

Everybody needs a different diet isn’t because we’re born 

 

Eating a different diet. It’s almost like how messed up is 

 

Your system. If you eat in the standard American diet for 20 years.

 

You’re going to be at a different place than somebody 

 

Who’s never eaten that way. Or somebody who’s eaten that way 

 

For 60 years. 

 

Richard Matthews  

That’s a really good point. 

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

In the gyms we often 

 

Have women who come in and are like, “It’s not fair. 

 

My daughter can eat candy all day and she doesn’t ever get fat.” 

 

Or, “My best friend lives on bagels or donuts or whatever.”

 

I think of it as; somebody once said this to me, and I think it’s 

 

Such a great analogy. I wouldn’t go in the sun 

 

Without sunscreen on. Somebody else might. They might 

 

Not burn or get skin cancer or anything else. But I’m not going 

 

To do that. I’m not going to say, “That’s not fair. My friend 

 

Doesn’t have to wear sunscreen, so I’m not going to.” We all have 

 

To know our own bodies, and take care of them according 

 

To the damage we’ve already done. That we can’t reverse. 

 

That we can stop making a part of our daily life. Then we 

 

Can also move forward and make better choices so that 

 

We can protect ourselves in a more long term way. But that 

 

Is where it becomes very specific. Which is why the food studies 

 

Are some of the most garbage. I honestly say to people 

 

All the time, that if my second grader turned in some of 

 

These reports that are these epidemiological statistic 

 

Hacking total crap studies. He would fail because scientists 

 

Would say your methods are ridiculous. There’s a big 

 

Colorectal cancer study out of the World Health Organization 

 

That looks at red meat. And says that, the more red meat 

 

You eat; the higher risk you are for developing colorectal cancer, 

 

Which is something that’s really affecting younger people 

 

In a way that nobody can explain. What’s fascinating is that 

 

If you actually go back and you look. They categorize things 

 

Like pizza as red meat. So when they were trying to;  

 

I mean, it’s like some of the worst science you’ve 

 

Ever heard of in your life. They asked questions 

 

It’s like all food frequency questionnaires, which have 

 

A very low; try to remember what you ate six weeks ago. 

 

Unless you are really diligent.

 

Richard Matthews  

I can’t even remember what I ate yesterday,

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

Totally. I mean, one of the things we do is a sound check 

 

On our podcast, is we say, “What did you eat the night before?” 

 

Just to get the person talking so we can check their sound levels. 

 

It’s hysterical because people are like, “What did I 

 

Last night,” and I’m always like, “That’s how they’re doing all of this nutrition research.”

 

Richard Matthews  

That’s terrible.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

Things like how many cups of ribs did you eat in the last six weeks? 

 

How many cups of ribs like bone in bone out?

 

How do you measure a cup of a rib?

 

Richard Matthews  

I have no idea. That’s not how ribs are measured.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

It’s the worst. It’s not the;

 

Richard Matthews  

You measure ribs by how many napkins you had to use, when you ate them.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

That could be better. That would be a much more 

 

Accurate analysis. I think a lot of that stuff is just; it’s like people 

 

Say it’s too expensive to test on human subjects. But the result 

 

Is we’ve spent hundreds of millions of dollars on these studies 

 

That really are inconclusive at the end, which is pretty frustrating.

 

Richard Matthews  

I think I’ve lucked out in the food category because 

 

My wife loves to cook so I get home cooked food for everything.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

Yeah, that’s it. I feel like if we just felt like 

 

Our grandparents ate;

 

Richard Matthews  

We’d be fine. 

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

We’d be much better off.

 

Richard Matthews  

This is a secret that I; my secret that I tell everyone is 

 

When you make it yourself, it’s better. It tastes better. 

 

The other day, my wife made roast chicken and vegetables, 

 

Which again, it’s all from scratch and she was like, 

 

She wanted to starch with the meal. And she’s like, “We didn’t 

 

Have any potatoes.” She’s like, “I’m gonna make stuffing.” 

 

And I was like, “From what? We don’t have stuffing.” She always 

 

Makes stuffing from a box of the holidays. And she was like, 

 

“I’m gonna make it from scratch.” So she took some rolls;

 

Chopped them all up; toasted them; and did all of her 

 

Vegetables and whatnot. Put them all in a sauce; came out 

 

And she was like, “This is why you should make it from scratch, 

 

Because it’s ridiculously better.” Everything you make from scratch 

 

Is so much better. I feel like my grandma had it right. 

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I think that’s the thing. Then I think you go to Whole Foods 

 

Or whatever your fancy local natural food store is. You think 

 

That you can get prepared foods. But the thing is that 

 

They’re cooking that with all kinds of crappy oil. It’s not the same 

 

As what you would make at home.

 

Richard Matthews  

Have you heard of the Beyond Meat? 

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

Yes. 

 

Richard Matthews  

Beyond Meat is getting all sorts of attention right now because 

 

Of their big IPO. If you look at the ingredients on Beyond Meat, 

 

It’s a huge, thick paragraph of all stuff you’ve never 

 

Heard of before. You take the same ground beef burger patty 

 

That you’ve made from Beyond Meat. What the ingredient is 

 

It’s like beef. You put it in your body.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

It’s such a good point. Because you want to be able to know 

 

What you’re putting in. If you can’t pronounce it, 

 

You probably shouldn’t eat it.

 

Richard Matthews  

I totally get that. Where you’re coming from on that. I want to 

 

Transition a little bit and talk about your your origin story. 

 

Which is how did you get into all of this business? How did 

 

It happen for you? We talked all the time on the show, every hero 

 

Has their origin story. Where you started to realize that maybe 

 

You were different. Maybe you had superpowers and maybe 

 

You could use them to help other people. How did that happen for you?

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I think we’re going to go into sort of like a therapy session here. 

 

Part of it is definitely the family that I grew up in. I grew up in a very 

 

Intellectual family and my older sister who is an art history professor.

 

Sort of world famous, is really brilliant. I think growing up in 

 

A family with two parents and an older sister. I had younger siblings, 

 

But formative years in that environment really taught me how to fail. 

 

I’m not asking for sympathy. 

 

This was the best thing that could have ever happened. Because I think 

 

I kind of came out of the womb, not a disappointment, but just 

 

So different than the rest of my family. That I was much 

 

More social than my parents or my older sister still are today. 

 

I think that difference, felt out of place. But it also allowed me 

 

To learn to take risks because I think, had I not had that I would 

 

Have been nervous that I would have been a disappointment. 

 

Whereas if you start out as a disappointment, then you’re like, 

 

“I got this. I can raise my hand or try this thing.” 

 

Because what’s the worst that’s gonna happen? I’m going 

 

To end up right where I started. If something great 

 

Happens from it; awesome. I think that probably was 

 

A huge influence on me when I was younger, which was hard 

 

When I was younger. But now looking back on it, it has 

 

All worked itself out. I think that also really made me 

 

Intensely interested in people. How there was such a range 

 

Of how people respond in situations and how people think 

 

About things and how people judge each other. And all of that, 

 

Certainly comes out in the businesses that I’ve run, as well as 

 

In the world of journalism. I often joke when I’m asked to do 

 

Any kind of public speaking that, I’ve interviewed murderers 

 

And CEOs. The real difference that you see is that 

 

One group of people was really listened to, and one group 

 

Wasn’t. Especially, when you start talking about 

 

Things like gang violence or any kind of socioeconomic 

 

Discrepancy in crime rates. It’s fascinating because what 

 

People really want is pretty much the same. People want 

 

Their kids to be safe. They want to be able to feed them. 

 

They want to have jobs. They want to work hard. 

 

They want to have a sense of purpose. If one group 

 

Doesn’t get that, or if one person doesn’t get that; we see this 

 

With women and men, it doesn’t really matter. It’s just humanity.

 

Then the behavior escalates until people start paying attention. 

 

That can happen in very negative ways. Now, it happens 

 

In really positive ways when you looking at the power set. 

 

But I often think that some of the things that we seem 

 

To value the most in our society are things like, perseverance. 

 

We talk a lot about grit. These kinds of things are 

 

So interesting, because we really respect those in certain people. 

 

I think African American single moms display more grit, 

 

Perseverance, self integrity, and devotion to raising their kids 

 

In a way that’s better than what they had. 

 

We don’t make heroes out of them. We should. I think there’s 

 

A whole; at a very young age, I became very interested in 

 

Not just what we say we like about people, but why 

 

We place value on some people and not others. Why that value 

 

Seems to hold different meaning, based on who is represented in. 

 

Does that make sense?

 

Richard Matthews  

It almost seems like there’s a disconnect between how individuals 

 

Place value on other individuals. And how society places 

 

The same value on individuals.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

Totally right. This is all my own observation. So, in some ways;

 

Richard Matthews  

Looking at it, if you look at how people interact. 

 

The generally speaking interpersonally people will value 

 

Other individuals. Especially, if they’re actually talking in person.

 

If we just discount the way people treat each other on social media, 

 

Because that’s just not real life. People are very; they’re nice 

 

To each other. One of the things that I’ve noticed in 

 

Our travels is that we live in a really great world. People are 

 

Generally good people. It’s interesting that that doesn’t get 

 

Reflected in the way society looks at itself and looks at 

 

The individuals inside of society. If that makes sense.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I completely understand that and agree with you. I think that’s part 

 

Of why people thought technology would be the ultimate equalizer. 

 

Because it would take out some of this bias, but in fact, 

 

It actually just amplifies. Going around and actually 

 

Talking to people is incredibly powerful. I mean, one of 

 

My favorite things when I was working at 2020, and Prime Time 

 

Was I would be on a plane three days a week. Dropped into 

 

Different crises around the country. It didn’t matter 

 

Where you were. As a member of the media, people 

 

Could be pretty hostile. But you could talk to people, and 

 

You could get to know them. And they’d be people that 

 

I would never normally come across in my day to day life. 

 

I would inevitably learn something. People are always like, 

 

“You have such a cool job.” I’m like, “It’s the most selfish job.” 

 

Because every day, you’re learning something different. It’s like 

 

One story to the next can be totally different. Then 

 

On top of that, I’m talking to people who are sharing 

 

Their stories with me, which I think that’s our 

 

Most valuable commodities. The stories that we have. 

 

When we die, all we have left is the stories. You might have 

 

Tons of money and your heirs might blow it all in the first year 

 

That you’re gone or whatever. But what people will remember. 

 

What they’ll keep talking about, is what your story is. That 

 

Keeps people company, I think, after you’re gone in a way. 

 

I valued that so much and I just felt like selfishly 

 

I was looking so much about myself. When you hear 

 

Somebody else talk about how they’ve dealt with something 

 

That was really hard, and they’re making themselves really 

 

Vulnerable to you. It’s impossible not to be vulnerable back 

 

And not to acknowledge the flaws that I have or the things 

 

That I struggle with. I feel like that’s a very lucky job to have.

 

Richard Matthews  

I don’t tell all my listeners this, but my secret; 

 

The reason I run this show is because I get to do that. 

 

I get to bring cool people on and hear their stories. 

 

Selfishly, I do this show because I get to experience stories from people. 

 

It’s the same reality for me. One of the things I tell my kids 

 

All the time is that we’re a story born people. What that means 

 

Is that you can judge the depth of a relationship based on stories. 

 

I measure it like this for people. An acquaintance is someone

 

Whose name you might know but whose story you don’t. 

 

A friend would be someone whose name you know, 

 

And whose story you also know. A best friend would be someone 

 

Who you’ve shared all of your stories with each other. The only way 

 

To deepen your relationship is to go out and create new stories together. 

 

If you look at it, there’s a lot of truth to that, because that’s how 

 

We deepen relationships with someone. You meet someone, it’s like, 

 

“Hey, what’s your name? Tell me about your family. 

 

What do you do?” It’s sharing stories. And the more stories you share; 

 

The closer you become as people. My wife is probably 

 

The closest person to me. I’ve heard every story she’s ever had. 

 

She can’t surprise me anymore. I’ve heard everything; same thing 

 

And the other way around. At this point, my wife knows 

 

All my stories and how I tell them to other people. Our only opportunity 

 

To continue to deepen our relationship is to continue 

 

To create new stories together. 

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

It’s so cool what you guys are doing on the road too, 

 

Because your kids are learning through their own stories. 

 

When you go to the Alamo with your kids. They’re studying 

 

The Alamo, but they’re also like, “I’m here. In this right now.” 

 

Experiencing it in a way that I’m sure cemented in their memory 

 

In a totally different way than if they just read it in a book.

 

Richard Matthews  

Absolutely. Because it becomes part of their story. It’s something 

 

That they’re connected with it personally. It’s one of 

 

The things I’ve really loved about traveling with my wife as well. 

 

We just hit 11 years of marriage. 

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

Congratulations.

 

Richard Matthews  

Thank you. Statistically, a lot of marriages don’t make it 

 

Past 10 years. Looking at it logically, I can see why. You can see,

 

One of the reasons why is because you’ve exhausted 

 

All of your opportunities together. If you’re not out, 

 

Creating more stories. If you’re just constantly stuck in a rut;

 

You can get bored. You’re not doing anything. 

 

You have no more stories to share. I could see how you would lose interest.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

That’s something that you hear from people too. They complain like, 

 

“We never do anything,” or, “This isn’t exciting anymore.” 

 

That’s probably speaking just to what you’re talking about 

 

Is you’re not out, creating new memories. You’re not out creating, 

 

Having new experiences that you’re sharing together.

 

Richard Matthews  

I think for us, it wasn’t a reason why we started traveling, 

 

But it’s an unintended extra benefit of it’s keeping; 

 

We’re constantly having new experiences and new stories 

 

With each other and with other people and new people. 

 

It’s brought us really close, which is really cool. 

 

To your point, that’s why the stories of individuals, I think, 

 

Are; it’s the currency we trade in relationships.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I couldn’t agree more. Absolutely.

 

Richard Matthews  

I want to move on a little bit and talk about your superpowers.

 

Superpower is what you bring to the table for your various businesses, 

 

Whether that’s your journalism, or your gyms, or your podcast. 

 

What is it that you think you bring to the table that helps 

 

Solve problems for your clients or for your readers

 

That you use to slay this world’s villains, so to speak?

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I definitely think that the ability to empathize with other people 

 

Is something that I’m good at. That is also, definitely, 

 

A very important skill set in what I do.

 

Richard Matthews  

Can you define empathy for those of us who don’t have big vocabularies?

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I think it’s really the ability to put yourself in somebody else’s shoes 

 

That it’s experiencing something that you have not experienced.

 

And see through their eyes. How they’re viewing the world, 

 

Which in my case is often seeing people who are pretty scared, 

 

Or nervous, or in danger, or just trying to make a change 

 

About something in their life and they don’t really know how to. 

 

I often think back to; even when I was in high school. 

 

My uncle was one of the earliest cases of AIDS or HIV. It was so 

 

Disturbing to see how sick he was and how people were really 

 

Terrified and didn’t want to take care of him because 

 

They didn’t know enough. I don’t blame those people. I think 

 

It was really scary time. But that made me really intensely interested in 

 

Sex ed and how do kids learn these things. Also how do we, 

 

As a culture, encourage certain things. Then people get sick. 

 

And we don’t really know how to handle it. All the repercussions 

 

For that were fascinating. I ended up developing this survey 

 

That I used at my school in Cambridge, Massachusetts. 

 

And surveyed the student population. Then I had lived in Italy, 

 

My junior year of high school, and I went back for part of my 

 

Senior year and interviewed that class, or that school population 

 

To compare them because obviously, in Rome, Italy, everybody’s 

 

Very Catholic. No one’s allowed to really talk about sex, but the kids 

 

Are all doing stuff. How does education play a role in all of this? 

 

I think in some ways, that was my first epidemiological study 

 

Or big survey population. Or understanding statistics. Or how do 

 

You measure things. For me, it was also a big part of the survey 

 

That I designed, was asking people to talk about what they were 

 

Scared of. What they wish they knew more about. And that is journalism 101. 

 

Finding a way to talk to people or 

 

To gather information to see, is there a story here? 

 

What is this about? I think, in a lot of the entrepreneurial endeavors 

 

That I’ve been a part of or that; I have friends that have been 

 

A part of. A huge part of. It is like, is there a market need for this? 

 

How are you going to develop something that’s going 

 

To satiate that market? How are you going to do research and be scrappy, 

 

And do all of this without much money to get started. To see if 

 

There really is something that’s a concept that you could build on 

 

And make money off of. Then how do you convince other people 

 

That it’s a great idea and they should invest. In journalism, 

 

It’s really the same process. You hear something from somebody 

 

You think, “That’s kind of interesting. I didn’t know that before.” 

 

Or, “I bet a lot of people don’t know that.” And then you have to say, 

 

“Is that true? Is that a real thing? Or is this a one off? If it’s 

 

A real thing, then how do I get people to talk to me? What is the 

 

Audience demand for this? And who are the right sources 

 

To talk to to tell that story? And then how do you put it all together 

 

In a way that makes people latch on to it and want to share 

 

That information?” I mean, for me, those are very similar processes.

 

Richard Matthews  

It’s almost almost exactly the same.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I think, for me, my other superpower would probably be 

 

A good thing and a bad thing, which is that I am crazy curious. 

 

My mom would say that I’m insatiably curious, which means that

 

I’m never satisfied. I always want to know more. But I think for both of those, 

 

Both of the things that I enjoy doing from a business perspective, it works. 

 

It’s hard because as soon as I get bored, I’m out the door. 

 

Because I feel like I’ve learned what I needed to learn 

 

And now I’m on to the problem, challenge, whatever. 

 

But from a personal perspective, I feel like I get a lot of stuff done.

 

Richard Matthews  

It makes a lot of sense. One of the things I was thinking 

 

When you talked about empathy too, is empathy is it’s like 

 

The quintessential skill for a business owner or a CEO or whoever 

 

Is doing the marketing for a business. Because you have to be able 

 

To put yourself into the buyers shoes, and see what they’re seeing, 

 

And experience the problems that they’re experiencing 

 

So you can communicate with them. Which means understanding 

 

Their story and understanding where they’re coming from. 

 

That kind of stuff. I can definitely see how that would be a superpower 

 

For someone such as yourself.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I think the other; both curiosity and empathy 

 

Have bad sides to them, too. I feel like I have to be 

 

A little protective when I’m covering really tough stuff to 

 

Not allow myself to take on those feelings or; I hate to say, 

 

Become too close to the problem, but I think that can be

 

A liability that anybody who is deeply empathetic 

 

Or involved in these kinds of things, does need to be protective in ways.

 

Richard Matthews  

Absolutely.

 

Speaker  

Music is by Purple Planet Music. Visit https://www.purple-planet.com/

 

Richard Matthews  

I want to talk about the flip side of the superpower, 

 

Which is the fatal flaw. Fatal flaw, Superman has his Kryptonite. 

 

Or Batman, it’s not actually a superhero. He just works hard 

 

And has lots of money. The fatal flaw something that you think 

 

Has either held back your career. Held back 

 

Your business in a way that you’ve had to work on. 

 

You’ve had to overcome something to make yourself 

 

Have the success and influence you have today. What do you 

 

Think that is? And I think more importantly, how have you worked 

 

To overcome that for other people who might struggle with something similar?

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I think I probably have a long list of these. 

 

Richard Matthews  

I think we all do.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I feel like the learning curve one is probably one that 

 

When I was younger, cause more problems. I think 

 

At a certain level, there’s an immaturity that comes from 

 

The idea that you get in. You figure something out. 

 

Then you can move on. Because as you peel back layers of 

 

The onion, or whatever you want to say, you realize that 

 

There’s a lot more to learn by sometimes just sitting with stuff. 

 

You might think that you’ve got it all figured out, but you don’t. 

 

Because nobody really has anything figured out. Once you acknowledge, 

 

“I’m kind of bored, but why am I bored? Am I bored? Because I’ve really 

 

Because like, I had my goal set on one thing, and I’ve accomplished 

 

Learned everything that I there is to learn?” Probably not. Probably 

 

That and now I think it’s time to move on. I think that is something 

 

That I still struggle with, because I still feel like sometimes a lot of life 

 

Is mundane. And you have to sort of be able to stick with it, 

 

And get all that stuff done in order to do the stuff that 

 

You really love to. I’d say that’s something that I’m still 

 

Very aware of because I like to be in the fire. 

 

One of my best friends who I’ve been friends with since high school 

 

Jokes that I am the friend that if you get sent to jail, 

 

You call Emily and she’ll get you out. She’ll figure out;

 

She’ll put you in hiding and you’ll be fine. No one will know 

 

Where you are. She’ll solve all the problems. But I don’t call friends, 

 

Regularly. I don’t have time. And I feel like, you should know, 

 

I’m always there for you if there’s an emergency. But I’m not 

 

The kind of person who’s going to talk to you on the phone 

 

For an hour every day. I have to have friends that 

 

Understand that, in a way that, 

 

I love you completely, but that is not my area of just chit chatting. 

 

I’m just not good at that. And I think; 

 

Richard Matthews  

Just not that person.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

Some people are and some people need that. 

 

I don’t feel like I really need that. When I see friends that 

 

I haven’t seen for a while I want to get right into it.

 

What’s going on? What’s been hard? What have I missed?

 

It was really interesting doing business in the Middle East. 

 

One of the things that I learned was they really like 

 

To talk for like seven hours about you, and something 

 

In the news cycle, or the weather. I’m like, “We got a deal. 

 

Are we going to talk about the deal? When 

 

Is this happening?” They want to get to know you. 

 

That was really interesting, because I remember being like, 

 

“Are we here to talk about the thing that I think we’re here 

 

To talk about? Or is this like a date? What is happening?” 

 

But it was just, they would sit and have coffee for 

 

Six hours and smoke a ton of cigarettes. You’d just be 

 

Hanging out, and then all of a sudden the deal would happen, 

 

And then it would happen in five minutes, if they liked you. 

 

I feel like that being open to 

 

The different ways that things happen. I would say that that’s; 

 

I always feel like I’ve been very open, but I also am,

 

I guess a little impatient.

 

Richard Matthews  

I have a curious question for you. 

 

There’s something I learned from my wife recently, that really 

 

Opened something up for me. I’m curious because it sounds 

 

Like you have a similar thought process. Here’s my 

 

Curious question, something that my wife taught me 

 

That I was not aware of, that I think you have something 

 

Very similar going on. I’m just curious if you see this 

 

In yourself. My wife, studies education. That’s what she 

 

Got her degree in, in college. She homeschooled our kids and whatnot. 

 

One of the things in education is how you teach kids who 

 

Have different intelligent levels. Because it changes 

 

How you approach the child, and how you teach them, 

 

And how you reinforce ideas and whatnot. Based on; 

 

IQ levels have real impact on how a kid learns. My wife was studying some of this 

 

And she came across some interesting studies that she was like, 

 

“I found you.” She’s like, “I found you. And the way that you think 

 

In some of these studies,” and I was like, “Sure. Lay it on me.” 

 

In the group of kids who are considered smart. The kids who 

 

Are higher than average intelligence. They generally break out 

 

Into two groups of children. You have what they call 

 

The smart kids. And then you have the bright kids. The difference 

 

That they make the delineation is a smart kid or a bright kid 

 

Is going to be the kind of kid who; you put 

 

A question in front of them, and they immediately have the answer.

 

If you say, what’s one plus one, they’re going to say two 

 

And not even think about it. The other kids, the smaller subset 

 

Of your intelligent kids; you’re gonna say, what’s one plus one; 

 

They’re going to ask you a question. They’re going to respond 

 

With; why are you interested in knowing what one plus one is? 

 

What type of one are we talking about? 

 

Are we talking about one monkey plus one monkey is going 

 

To equal three monkeys? Are we talking about like one egg 

 

Plus two eggs? We put them together? We know two eggs 

 

What’s going on here? They want to know the context. 

 

They want to ask questions. They want to get deeper. 

 

That’s a different type of intelligence. It’s a much smaller subset 

 

Of people. So they say if you break down your intelligent kids; 

 

80% of your intelligent kids are going to be: the you ask him 

 

A question, you get an answer. And about 20% of those. 

 

About 20% of those kids are going to be the kind of kids 

 

Where you ask them a question. When you get back is 

 

Not the answer. You get another question. That smaller subset 

 

Is the subset where savants come in. If you ever watched 

 

Big Bang Theory, Sheldon Cooper would be one of the; a savant 

 

Is going to be in that subset of people where they are; 

 

They’re constantly asking questions and digging deeper 

 

And going and places like that. It’s a completely different way 

 

To think. And you approach the world differently. You approach questions. 

 

You approach a lot of things from that; you’re not really 

 

Interested in getting;

 

You were talking about once you’ve learned 

 

The thing; you’re done. Like I figured it out, I answered 

 

The question why, so it no longer interests you. It doesn’t matter 

 

How many steps there are to completion. You’re like, 

 

“I’ve got it done. I’m figured out. I’ve moved on to something else. “

 

I’m that way. I’m curious if you see that in yourself.

 

Where the way that you think is not necessarily;

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

The idea of asking additional questions or challenging, 

 

I wonder how much of that is like a nature nurture thing. 

 

Because I think I was really encouraged as a kid. My mom 

 

Often said to us: the best way to let somebody know 

 

That you’re listening to them is to ask really good questions. 

 

Because it shows them that you’re interested and 

 

You’re engaged, but also that you’re really listening to 

 

The content of what they’re saying. I know a lot of 

 

Other people, especially now as adults that get really 

 

Pissed off when people ask them questions.

 

So, my mom wasn’t 100% right. Maybe if you’re hanging out 

 

With intellectual academic type people, 

 

Then they appreciate that extra analysis or 

 

The thoughtfulness that goes into asking a good question. 

 

But for a lot of people who want to be in control,

 

And want people to respect their authority; they do not like it 

 

When you do that. And I think that was something that 

 

I really had to learn. I always thought it was like, 

 

A sign of being polite; was asking questions. I think 

 

When my husband and I were dating, he had a nickname 

 

For me where he was like, “You know, you’re the Riddler.” 

 

I’m like, “What do you mean?” He’s like, “You could literally have 

 

A cape with question marks on the back, because you 

 

Never stop asking questions.” And I was like, “Is that obnoxious?”

 

He’s like, “No, but it can be exhausting.” I’m just trying to show 

 

That I’m interested. I’m really curious about 

 

What you’re talking about. And I also think as a kid, 

 

A lot of times people will be talking about things that they 

 

Really didn’t understand and it was pretty boring. And that 

 

The way I can could engage was to say, “Explain that 

 

To me, or how does that work?” And then people would often be like, 

 

“That was a really profound conversation that I had with Emily who’s 10.”

 

I wasn’t trying to be profound. I was literally just didn’t understand it. 

 

As a journalist now, especially covering medical stuff, 

 

It’s fascinating to me how much asking really simple questions 

 

Can not unravel the person but can take them aback. 

 

Because so much of what you were saying is they learned this 

 

In med school, and then they repeat it. And when you 

 

Say to them, “But why or what is the mechanism of action 

 

That’s causing that symptom or that disease?” 

 

They’re like, “What?” And you’re like, 

 

“Don’t you want to know why that’s happening in the body?

 

What is biologically happening that’s causing cancer?” 

 

We’ve spent billions of dollars on cancer research.

 

Nobody really understands cancer. Is it a genetic disease? 

 

I don’t know. I’m not convinced because I think there’s much 

 

About what they found with mapping the cancer genome, 

 

That suggests that it is far more complex than 

 

What we thought it was. I think this idea of asking questions, 

 

For me really started as a way of dealing with boredom. 

 

Also wanting to be polite. And it’s come back to me in the ass, 

 

Because a lot of times people will be like, “You’re really aggressive.” 

 

I’m like, “What? I’m trying to be polite. I’m not trying to be aggressive.”

 

Richard Matthews  

I think that’s exactly my point, though. It’s not 

 

A common thing to be the kind of person who wants to 

 

And generally is interested in asking the questions and 

 

Getting deeper on it. Even with really smart people. A lot 

 

Of times it’s like: here’s the problem. Here’s the answer. 

 

I got the answer. They’re not questioning their premises.

 

It’s not a common thing. 

 

I think you have the benefit of having gotten both the nature 

 

And the nurture for the desire to to delve into questions. 

 

And do all of that. I think it’s a unique skill 

 

To be able to see beyond what is presented to you and ask 

 

The deeper questions. To question the premises and 

 

To question the reasons why we’re doing the studies 

 

The way we are, and doing stuff like that. 

 

Because I don’t think it’s a common skill.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

When you’re saying it like that, I really think it does go back 

 

To the fact that I always knew. In some ways, 

 

I always wanted to disprove my older sister.

 

She was so smart, and she could read 

 

Coming out of the womb. And she just … knowledge. 

 

There was definitely a motivation and a competitive sense of being,

 

“Maybe she’s wrong.” So, how do you know that and 

 

How do you know this? I wonder if that was part of it, too. 

 

I’ve never really thought of it that way. But that would definitely 

 

Make sense that there can be 

 

A debate quality to it. Where you are doing 

 

A Socratic method. Where you’re getting somebody 

 

To explain something that really comes around to your original point,

 

By asking enough questions. You can get them to make your point for you.

 

Richard Matthews  

It’s persuasion 101.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

Which I think is really useful. But I also think you got to have both. 

 

Because if you’re just somebody who’s on the attack, 

 

That’s really unpleasant. It’s unpleasant for you too;

 

Richard Matthews  

The other thing that’s really useful to know about it, too, is 

 

To know where the weaknesses are of 

 

That type of thinking. Like you mentioned, being 

 

The kind of person who’s, I got bored with this. 

 

Did you get bored because  it didn’t engage 

 

Your questioning anymore? Or are you bored 

 

Because there’s still more 

 

To learn here and you just you need to move on. 

 

One of the things; my wife’s on the other end of the spectrum 

 

Where she’s very bright, but she’s like, 

 

“Present me with information and I’ll get you the answer.”

 

Someone like that is like, she’s really good at getting 

 

The things done. I’m really good at figuring out 

 

Why we should do the things. But then once I figured it out, 

 

I don’t care anymore. Then I don’t get anything done.

 

You need to temperate. Whether that’s by having someone 

 

To push you and make you do the things you don’t want 

 

To do or by just realizing: I need to work on 

 

That part of my personality. It’s just useful to be aware of.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

Definitely. It’s funny because I feel like, my husband is brilliant. 

 

If you watch Jeopardy with him, you want to throw 

 

The remote control at his head because he knows the answer.

 

I’m like, “I haven’t even had time to finish reading 

 

The question. How do you do that? It’s incredible.” 

 

His recall, memory is way beyond anything that I will ever 

 

Be capable of. He and I come at these things from

 

Very different points of view too. He’s very analytical. 

 

You’re right. In some ways, it sounds like 

 

A similar complimentary relationship where, 

 

He often jokes. We’ll be at a cocktail party or something. 

 

And I’ll be like, “It’s time to go.” 

 

Then I’ll spend an hour saying goodbye to people 

 

And it drives him nuts. Because he’s like, “You literally; 

 

Richard Matthews  

He wants to get it done.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

Thanks for coming. I’m like, yeah. And will I see you 

 

On Tuesday? Or is this happening? Or what about this.” 

 

Or the person will say something, and he’s like, “You just 

 

Can’t help yourself. You just start asking questions, and then 

 

The conversation keeps going, and we don’t ever leave.” That’s true. 

 

I can’t help it because I like to engage. 

 

Richard Matthews  

My wife and I have had literally the exact conversation 

 

With the other way around. We’ll go somewhere 

 

And she’s like, “I’m ready to leave.” And two hours later, 

 

I’ve talked to like 14 different people. 

 

We’ve gotten to points like some some things where it’s like, 

 

We’ll go to an event and she’ll bring an extra vehicle, or 

 

An extra way to go home. She’s like, “I know you’re going 

 

To stay there and talk for two hours longer than I want to.” 

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

That’s the key to marriage, is acknowledging that 

 

Not getting mad about it, but coming up with different exit strategies.

 

Richard Matthews  

She’s like, “Because if I stay there with you. I would 

 

Want to pull your hair out.” Let me move on 

 

A little bit and talk about your common enemy. I like to think 

 

Of the common enemy in terms of that’s something that 

 

You’re fighting against with your clientele. I think this probably 

 

Makes a lot of sense inside of the the context of your gym business. 

 

The ladies that come to you, what’s something that 

 

You constantly find yourself having to fight against to 

 

Help them move past so they can get the results they’re looking for. 

 

That you run into on a regular basis. Something you have to fight against 

 

With them. What do you think that is?

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I think misinformation is, probably across the board, the thing 

 

That is the common enemy. So many, especially women 

 

Have come in trying millions of different diets. 

 

Some of them quite restrictive and unpleasant: psychologically, 

 

Physically, the whole deal. And they feel like failures.

 

Part of the job of the managers in the studios who do the 

 

Nutrition counseling is to say to them, “Your body 

 

Doesn’t really want to be starved. We’re not going 

 

To starve you. That doesn’t actually work long term.” We have 

 

Clients who have been with us for years and years, 

 

They’ve gotten great results. They love coming, and they’re 

 

Never going to leave. Because we’re not a quick fix model. 

 

I think women get really taken advantage of.

 

Which is something we could talk about in the realm of 

 

The podcast too. Where they’re just dismissed 

 

When it comes to health. I think Fad diets are probably

 

Top of the leaderboard in terms of manipulation of women. 

 

Also like you were saying, with the egg studies, just really 

 

Garbage information out there. Then there becomes 

 

This breakdown and trust. So, you read something 

 

One day and then you read the opposite thing the next day 

 

And you think, “No one’s gonna be able to help me because;”

 

Richard Matthews  

How do you what to trust? If everything; 

 

It’s changed completely over the last 10 years too because of 

 

Our access to information. Before the medical community would 

 

Argue amongst themselves about whether or not 

 

Eggs were good and nobody would know. 

 

But now, it’s on your Facebook newsfeed. 

 

Yesterday, eggs were good. Today, eggs are bad. Tomorrow, 

 

Eggs are good again. Everyone knows. We’re all confused.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I think that you could make 

 

The same argument about the media. It used to be that 

 

There were three network news channels. And you tuned 

 

Into one of them every night at six o’clock, and whoever 

 

Was the guy behind the anchor desk was the guy that you 

 

Got your news from. That guy had a team of people 

 

Behind him and they were sorting all the news around the world. 

 

Back then it really was around the world because all these 

 

News outlets, newspapers, TV, magazines, they had bureaus.

 

Which we don’t even have anymore. There was an office 

 

That was in Turkey. It wasn’t like, “We got to drop 

 

Some reporters in there. Or find some freelancers that are there.” 

 

It’s like, “We’ve got a bureau. We have established relationships.

 

We can call on those people.” Bloomberg, I think is the only one 

 

Who really still does that. What’s interesting is that, 

 

Now it’s become this. I got a Master’s 

 

At Northwestern in journalism. One of the things that was 

 

A big topic of conversation in getting your masters is;

 

And this goes down to what words you use. Do you write 

 

At a eighth grade level? Or do you write at a fourth grade level?

 

So, that everybody can read and understand what you’re writing. 

 

Or do you encourage people to go get a dictionary 

 

And look up a word. Your choices about those things 

 

Are editorial choices that you’re making that will influence 

 

The new cycle. And I think that since we’ve developed 

 

The 24-hour cable news cycle, and certainly with the disruption 

 

Of the internet, and the blogosphere which came into 

 

The picture, which I think journalists felt so threatened by 

 

And they shouldn’t have. They should have said, 

 

“I’m trained. I’m a member of the Fourth Estate. 

 

I have constitutional protection. I can be privy to a crime and 

 

Not be considered an accomplice. Because I’m a journalist.” 

 

I’ve been trained to be a journalist. That is quite different 

 

Than somebody who throws up a web page. Now is doing 

 

Some reporting. But instead of acknowledging, 

 

“This is really cool. All these people are interested in journalism.”

 

But it’s different than what we’re doing. It became this race 

 

To the bottom, where it was like, “Let’s throw some listicles up, 

 

And I hope we get more;”

 

Richard Matthews  

… clickbait

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I think, now, it’s really gotten dangerous. Where this 

 

Whole idea of fake news and that’s not good for any of us. 

 

I don’t care where you are in the political spectrum. 

 

You need to have a free press that’s 

 

Doing good reporting to hold people in power accountable. 

 

That’s it for this job. And I think we’ve lost them now. 

 

Even I’m in some secret reporter messaging groups. 

 

About a year ago, there was a huge dialogue about some 

 

Online news sites that were getting rid of; most of them 

 

Have gotten rid of the dateline, which is, basically, where 

 

You are reporting from. It used to say: Boston mass, and 

 

Then it would have the story. Most places don’t have that anymore. 

 

But now they’re starting to get rid of the time and date. 

 

Because search engines will prioritize the most recent information. 

 

You get rid of the date of a story. Now it becomes; we could 

 

Search something from, the mortgage crisis. 

 

If you Google that, and it came up today, you’d be like, 

 

“The stock market’s crashing. What happened?” But no, 

 

It’s from years ago. And it’s that news outlet is really 

 

Trying to trick the Google algorithms. But in journalism: 

 

What, where when, why. The 5 W’s are so important. 

 

We’re just knocking them off to satisfy algorithms.  

 

No, you can’t do that. That’s absolutely against the rules. 

 

I’m like a dinosaur, because people are like, “You have to do it 

 

Or you won’t survive. Or you have to do it or your stuff 

 

Won’t come up because BuzzFeed will be faster, or 

 

They’ll produce more.” So, their stuff will come up more regularly. 

 

At some point, the cream will rise. And the crap will sink. 

 

That’s how it should be. If you have really good content, 

 

Which is what we’re trying to do with the podcast.

 

We haven’t accepted any sponsorships. We’re taking donations, 

 

But we’re not. I’m uncomfortable with the

 

Very small operation. Taking money from anybody. I feel like 

 

We’re really going to keep producing excellent content with 

 

The world’s experts on every topic. We have the best sources 

 

You can get. And hopefully people will enjoy that enough 

 

That they’ll start donating more or we’ll figure it out 

 

In some way because I think there is a need;

 

Richard Matthews  

What I find really interesting about that, too.

 

If you actually look at what Google says they want to do. 

 

They want what you’re saying to happen.

 

But they’re not there yet. So, their algorithms are manipulatable. 

 

In order to drive the dollar, the news is doing 

 

Whatever manipulating they can to show up at the top of 

 

Their search results. It’s not just Google. It’s Google, 

 

Facebook, Twitter, and all the different places have 

 

Their different algorithms. But Google is our 

 

Favorite one to pick on. Because it’s the biggest. It’s amazing 

 

To see. I remember watching the news as a kid 

 

With my parents. And I remember reading the news in 

 

The newspaper, and it was: this is what’s happening. 

 

This is where it’s happening. That’s why it’s happening. 

 

If you watch the news today, they’re like, “Joe Schmo 

 

On Twitter said this happened.” And I’m like, “How is you, doing 

 

A Twitter search investigative journalism?” 

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

The local news is like: “The bacteria in your refrigerator 

 

Is going to kill you. Stay tuned.” You’re like, “What? What are we talking about?”

 

These are not the stories that are most useful. 

 

That the citizenry needs to know and understand and make 

 

Voting decisions based on these are the stories that are 

 

Going to keep people watching through the ads. That’s totally different. 

 

That serves a very different purpose. 

 

Not helpful to the democracy but necessary. 

 

Richard Matthews  

To your point, that’s the misinformation we’re dealing with. 

 

We’re dealing with with stuff that’s either not relevant, or 

 

It’s not real news. But what all the people on the ground with Twitter say, 

 

“That’s not the news. It’s people’s perspective on what’s going on.”

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

The inside way of saying that: Is it the news that they need

 

Or is it the news that they want? That sounds like 

 

A tough parent. It’s like: you may not want this, 

 

But this is what you need. You homeschool your kids, you know 

 

This better than I do. Sometimes you have to find 

 

A way of getting them to absorb information, that’s really 

 

Important for them to understand. But that’s either hard, 

 

Or complex, or not as sexy or interesting or whatever. 

 

But it actually in the long run is the stuff they really need to know. 

 

I feel the same way about reporting in general.

 

Whether it’s celebrity news or whatever, that’s great. 

 

Consume that stuff. For sure. I’m not saying, don’t have 

 

Any lowbrow stuff. But I think it’s got to be mixed in with 

 

Some real stuff that you are assuming people have 

 

A baseline of education that they’ll be able to understand. 

 

If they don’t, you’re sparking a curiosity, and then that’s 

 

Going to make them want to look it up and be interested in it. 

 

I feel like that’s really idealist …

 

Richard Matthews  

I just had a conversation yesterday 

 

With my son. He was having a hard time focusing on his math. 

 

After he was done with math, it took him three hours. It should have 

 

Taken him 45 minutes because he was doddling,

 

Looking at other things, and not paying attention.

 

His mom was being hard on him about it, and he finally finished.

 

He was like, “Yey, I’m finished.” Then, he immediately go do the thing 

 

That he’s passionate about, which is he wants to be a Falconer 

 

When he grows up. He started talking about all that. 

 

Getting in all that stuff. And I stopped him, I was like, 

 

“Here’s the thing, your mom is trying to force you to learn 

 

How to focus, because she knows that when you get to the point 

 

Where you can’t actually start studying to be a Falconer, 

 

You’re gonna have to be able to have that skill. You need 

 

To be able to focus and do the things that you want to do. 

 

We’re not just being mean to you. We’re not making you do these things 

 

Because we have to make you do these things. You have to learn 

 

The skill of being able to focus and get work done, 

 

Even if you don’t like it. That’s gonna let you do the things 

 

That you want to do later.”

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

That’s absolutely right. I remember giving my algebra teacher such 

 

A hard time. I’m like, “When am I ever going to use this? 

 

This is totally pointless.” I remember him looking 

 

At me and being like, “It’s training your brain so that you can 

 

Do more complex problems next,” and I was like, “Training 

 

My brain? What you’re talking talking about?” 

 

Richard Matthews  

Like, “That’s so dumb. I don’t need to train my brain.” 

 

Yes, I’m having that exact conversation with my child right now. 

 

I totally get it. My next question for you is the flip side. 

 

If you’re common enemy is the thing you fight against; 

 

Your driving forces to the thing you fight for. Google fights 

 

To index and categorize all the world’s information. 

 

Batman fights to save Gotham. What is it that you fight for with your businesses?

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I think I have always wanted to give a voice to people who don’t have one.

 

Richard Matthews  

What does that mean?

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I think it means getting into situations where there needs 

 

To be amplification of an issue, meaning like a voice, 

 

Whether it’s an individual’s or something larger than that. 

 

With the podcast, certainly it is all around women’s health and 

 

This idea that women don’t even know that the information 

 

That they’re getting at the doctor is not based on their bodies.

 

That we can talk to experts about all of these different things, 

 

And give women information so that they can then go to 

 

The doctor and have an actual conversation that will benefit them. 

 

We’re arming women. I mean, it’s like a revolution, 

 

We’re giving women the knowledge that they need so that 

 

They can lead healthier, happier lives. I mean that 

 

From the bottom of my heart. I don’t think you can make 

 

Good decisions if you don’t have good information. I think that 

 

Has always been something that has bothered me, whether it’s 

 

Gossip that people are saying about somebody that 

 

You’re friends with. Or it’s information that goes really 

 

To the heart of your medical care. You need to know 

 

What’s right and what’s wrong. And what the research is. We were 

 

Doing a big episode that’s not out yet, on mammograms. 

 

The efficacy of mammograms as a screening test is terrible. 

 

It is so bad. And yet statistically, everybody turns 40 and they go 

 

And get a mammogram and it’s just what you do. It’s like why. 

 

And so all these; it’s such a polarizing topic because 

 

These statisticians, who really run the numbers 

 

Have found that a great study that’s 

 

A 25 year longitudinal study that was done in Canada 

 

That looked at; they randomized women. One group 

 

Got mammograms, one group did not. And it’s basically 

 

The same number of women that get cancer in both groups and 

 

It’s the same number of deaths. 

 

At the same time, those are population based studies. We have 

 

To be really careful about like, I’m not going to say to my mom 

 

Or my sisters don’t get a mammogram because it’s a crappy test. 

 

But I will say to them: “If you feel any symptoms, or 

 

You feel sick in any way; you have to get a mammogram.” 

 

If you decide not to get a mammogram, you’re probably okay. 

 

Statistically, less than 2% of American women develop breast cancer. 

 

If you unplugged these mammogram machines and 

 

You randomly checked, just ticked off 2% 

 

Of the population, you’d have about the same results. I mean, that’s

 

The positive predictive value that we’ve found with these tests. 

 

But that is so hard to talk about because people feel like, 

 

“I had a mammogram and it found breast cancer. 

 

How can you tell me not to get one.” And so I feel part of 

 

My job is to give the information to women, and I’m not going 

 

To tell you what to do with it. That’s your choice. But at least 

 

You have the information so you can have an informed 

 

Conversation with your mother, daughter, friends, and certainly 

 

With your doctor. Because, in my experience, and certainly 

 

What we hear over and over again, on empowered health 

 

Is this idea that women go to the doctor and they say, 

 

“I don’t feel great. These are my symptoms.” And doctors are like, 

 

“You know what, you’re depressed, or you have anxiety.” These are 

 

The most common diagnoses that women have. 

 

That’s not actually true. They’re presenting real physiological symptoms. 

 

At the very least, they should be tested for things that 

 

Would fit in those categories and they’re not. My hope is 

 

The more that we share this information. And I think we have 

 

A lot of doctors who listen to the podcast, which is great. 

 

That will allow the doctors to become more curious and 

 

More informed and realize that there are many different ways 

 

Of looking at a lot of these things. And it also will arm up 

 

The patients to go in and say; and our show notes 

 

Are really extensive. So they’re transcripts of the shows, 

 

But then they link out to every study that’s mentioned. 

 

It’s really easy for women to go and listen and say, 

 

“I don’t know about that. I’ve never seen anything like that.” 

 

Then they can go to the JAMA article and actually read 

 

The original study with the breakdown of everything in it. 

 

Most people aren’t going to probably do that. But if it’s 

 

Something where you’re really worried about your mom, or 

 

You’re really worried about yourself, and you’re trying to 

 

Find good information, we spent a ton of time sifting through 

 

And really trying to find the right topics and the right information 

 

For women to be able to make the best decisions for themselves. 

 

I think that’s where we’re giving voice to people.

 

Richard Matthews  

I have two thoughts. One of them was on 

 

The idea of giving voice to someone, the picture that came 

 

To my head. It’s like taking individual conversations

 

That you would have on a individual level and being able 

 

To raise them up into societal conversations is almost like 

 

What you mean what you’re saying giving someone a voice. 

 

We’re taking stuff that’s not heard in 

 

The bigger conversations and raising them up into the place 

 

Where people can hear those. Is that;

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

Absolutely. And also just raising some;

 

Starting a little bit of fire. If you went to the doctor, 

 

And you said, “I’m having night sweats. 

 

I feel super moody. And I’m not sure, sometimes 

 

My heart is racing.” And they said, “It sounds like maybe 

 

You’re going through menopause. We’re going to give you 

 

Some hormone replacement drugs.” You’d be like, 

 

“No, wait, sorry. I’m a dude. I’m not going through menopause.” 

 

That’s basically for me the equivalent of what happens 

 

To women when they go to the doctor. They’re given advice 

 

Based on tests that have been run or clinical trials that have 

 

Been done on men. Women are not allowed to be 

 

In clinical trials if they’re of childbearing ages. That means, basically 

 

20 to 37 or 40, you cannot be in a clinical trial so they 

 

Have not tested on you. So, it’s like I take the same dose 

 

Of aspirin or whatever, as my husband. We’re prescribed 

 

The same kind of antibiotics and the same dosage. Why? 

 

That’s crazy. It effects my body totally differently. I’m a different 

 

Size thah he is. At the very least you’d think we would be 

 

Scaling medications based for smaller bodies. We’re not. 

 

None of that. Aspirin is actually 

 

A really great example. It’s the one of the longest largest 

 

Clinical trials ever done. Looks at the use of aspirin and the benefits. 

 

There’s not a single woman in that study not one.

 

Women are routinely able to take aspirin 

 

When they fly or anything. They don’t know. Maybe it’s true, 

 

But we don’t know. It’s insane. It’s totally insane. I often say 

 

To people, “I’ve covered really complex crime. 

 

I’ve covered technology with Congress. You got government

 

And technology mixed together, which is a crazy cluster. 

 

And women’s health is like the dumpster fire of it all.” 

 

It is such a mess. And the fact that people don’t even realize 

 

It’s such a mess is what has gotten me so wrapped up in 

 

This project because it’s just insane to me that you go to

 

The doctor and I mean; statins are another one women 

 

Who are; people think we should put statins in 

 

The water to reduce cholesterol. Women’s cholesterol 

 

Runs higher than men naturally. A healthy woman, 

 

Her HDL, which is her good cholesterol, if you’re going to 

 

Consider one to be good, would be higher. And yet, that’s 

 

Not given any consideration in terms of the markers for 

 

When you should prescribe a statin. So, the markers 

 

Are probably based on men. Then on top of that 

 

Women are 400 times more likely to develop diabetes 

 

If they’re put on a statin. So every doctor should 

 

Be basically sitting down with their patient and saying, 

 

“Your cholesterol’s high, but you’re also overweight. 

 

You have these other; whatever. Your A1C is high. 

 

You have high inflammation. You’re more likely to develop diabetes. 

 

So, I’m not going to give you the statin. Instead, you really 

 

Need to lose 20 pounds. That’s what you need to do. 

 

Not give you a drug that’s going to cause another problem 

 

That’s going to require more drugs.” That’s crazy. That’s how we treat.

 

Richard Matthews  

I think there’s interesting things that are happening too, politically, 

 

Right now with gender. It’s affecting the medical community. 

 

I was watching another investigative journalist who was talking about 

 

How they’re treating women’s health in the the birth centers; …

 

That kind of stuff. They went into one of the clinics for a pregnancy, 

 

And he dressed himself up as a transgender woman. 

 

And brought a friend of his who was pregnant and brought her urine 

 

With him to go get a pregnancy test. And basically, it was 

 

A positive pregnancy test. That’s what he was going to see. 

 

How would they respond to a transgender woman with 

 

A positive pregnancy test and blew me away cause they 

 

Brought their secret cams and whatnot. And they basically 

 

Told him and said you’re pregnant. And he’s very obviously 

 

A six foot two man dressed in women’s clothing. 

 

He’s not pregnant. There’s no way he could be pregnant 

 

And a man who gets pregnant; the reason 

 

They did this study was because a man with a positive 

 

Pregnancy test has testicular cancer. That’s what 

 

You should; as a doctor, you should be like, “You came back 

 

With a positive pregnancy test. And you have male genitalia, 

 

This is a bad thing.” You have the markers for testicular cancer, 

 

And they didn’t. They were like, “You’re dressed as a woman. You’re pregnant. 

 

Here’s all the things you need to know about being pregnant.” 

 

And they sent him on his way. Really interesting stuff. 

 

I’m not sure how much the political stuff plays into it. 

 

But I’m sure there’s a part of that that comes into; it feels like we’re trying 

 

To erase women, which doesn’t make any sense.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I think that you can definitely get into 

 

Really interesting research if you look at how money 

 

Is spent. I did a big story for the New York Times on 

 

The maternal mortality crisis and looking at the C section 

 

Rates which have gone through the roof. 

 

500% since the 70s. It’s more dangerous 

 

To give birth today than it was when our moms gave birth. 

 

If you’re a black woman, it is off the charts. 

 

Genuinely scary, in a way that you’re like, “Wait, this is America. 

 

What are we; what is happening?” 

 

Richard Matthews  

What’s going on? Yeah. 

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

If you look  at how the government spends money. 85% of 

 

The money spent on maternal issues goes to the baby. 

 

Not to the woman. And that to me is really symptomatic 

 

Of the larger issues, which are we, first of all 

 

The fact that like mom and baby are in the same 

 

Bundle budget is crazy. Totally different patients 

 

Experiencing very different medical needs, different symptoms, 

 

Different everything, but they’re put together in the same;

 

This is how much money we’re going to give to research on this topic. 

 

Then on top of that, you think like, “Wait, women 

 

Are getting 15% of all the funding. That’s nuts. That’s crazy.” 

 

Across the board, we see this. It’s the same with 

 

The clinical trials that women aren’t allowed to be in women. 

 

Most pregnant women take a prescription medication. 

 

The majority do and do not know because there’s never been 

 

Any testing on what it does to the baby or the mom. 

 

Across the board, the consumer protection 

 

Is not there. And you look at other countries and you think,  

 

“They figured this out and we’re way behind.” In a way that 

 

Whether it’s blatant sexism or just prioritizing things, 

 

It does feel like it needs to change. It’s not right. 

 

I hate the idea that people are like, “They’re 

 

Trying to make women invisible or whatever.” But I think you 

 

Take some of these things, and you look at them 

 

In isolation. And if you pretended that you were like an alien 

 

Coming down from another planet, and you were looking 

 

At how you value life, you would definitely see.

 

I feel this way about domestic violence stuff too. 

 

Men are often given second chances. When it’s the woman 

 

And the children, who are the ones that are the most vulnerable 

 

And that you’re taking a chance with their lives on 

 

The off chance that this guy has gotten his stuff together enough 

 

That he can re-enter the family or be responsible for children. 

 

That’s not the right value system. I mean, I’m not saying 

 

That I’m against redemption or forgiveness or whatever. 

 

When it comes to safety issues. No way. I think 

 

There is a value judgment that’s coming out in a lot of 

 

This medical stuff, and I think the maternal mortality crisis is 

 

A big one, because it’s outrageous. 

 

Richard Matthews  

When our son was born, one of the things that; 

 

When we were picking hospitals for our son, 

 

We looked at the mortality rates for mothers and 

 

We looked at the C section rate. And it’s really interesting, 

 

Because one of the hospitals in town had 

 

A 37% C section rate and other hospital in town had; 

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

33% is the national average. 

 

Richard Matthews  

And one of the other hospitals in town had a 3% C section rate, 

 

Bet you could guess which one we picked.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

Most people don’t even know that you can look that up.

 

That’s awesome that you guys did that because,

 

Consumer Reports did a big write up on C section rates 

 

In hospitals, which was the first big national. 

 

LeapFrog is another great organization that has made 

 

That information public. But, absolutely, if you 

 

Have choices you should shop around because there’s 

 

A culture in the labor work that’s making something go wrong. 

 

The long term impact for women is significant. It’s a higher 

 

Mortality rate if you have a C section and the risks from 

 

Having a C section can cause death up to five years later. 

 

No one’s tracking that. My daughter’s five, 

 

I didn’t have a C section but if I did, and I died is anybody 

 

Going to look at my; my death certificate 

 

Is not gonna say death due to complications from 

 

A C section five years ago. And so I think all of 

 

That. Death records are a whole other topic which 

 

We could get into which are fascinating because …

 

Richard Matthews  

I’ve done a lot of studies on that. I mentioned earlier, 

 

We did a bunch of research on the circumcision stuff. 

 

Death from circumcision is vastly underreported for the same reason 

 

Because you can have symptoms in the baby 

 

That will actually kill them. That happened months, 

 

Sometimes even years later, that can be directly traced back 

 

To the circumcision but will never be linked to it. The actual, 

 

Infant mortality rate caused by circumcision in males is 

 

A lot higher than any of the studies will show because of how far 

 

Into the future things can happen.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

Wow. I didn’t know that.

 

Richard Matthews  

One of the things; I’m going to probably get 

 

The word wrong; the medical word. Maybe it’s hypoplasia, but 

 

The scar tissue where the top part of the circumcision 

 

And the bottom part of circumcision come together, that 

 

Can break at any time in your life; throughout the history 

 

Of your life, and you can bleed out. That’s a thing, 

 

But nobody knows that. And it’s not associated with 

 

The circumcision. It’s like, “He had an injury to his genitals 

 

Or whatever. And it’s not tied back.” It’s the 

 

Same kind of thing that we’re not studying, what does a C section 

 

Look like five years down the road? I don’t know how you 

 

Deal with that. I don’t know how you fix things like that happening.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

In places like in England. The story that 

 

I wrote for the Times was looking at other countries and how 

 

They’ve dealt with this problem and how we haven’t.

 

We had about the same rates of maternal mortality, as 

 

The UK did in the 40s and 50s. And then they were like, “This is 

 

A public health crisis. We need to fix this.” 

 

What we did was we blamed moms for being too old 

 

Or too fat or whatever. And then we blamed doctors for saying, 

 

“You don’t care about your patients. You just want to have deliver 

 

More babies in one night. Or the liability is too highs so everybody’s 

 

Doing C sections.” And they took a totally different approach, which 

 

Was basically like, “This is a healthcare problem. We need to fix this 

 

On a systemic level. Not blame individual players. This is 

 

Clearly happening across the board.” Part of what they do now 

 

Is when a mom dies, which is very rare in the UK anymore, 

 

Because most babies are delivered by midwives. So they’re not in 

 

These ICU type units, anyway. But they also then do a full retrospective 

 

Where they look at the social media posts of the mom. 

 

They go back and they talk to all of her friends and her family and 

 

They see: was she presenting symptoms? Did she not know 

 

Those symptoms could have been as life threatening 

 

As they turned out to be? What kind of intervention was there? 

 

When most of these deaths are happening postpartum. 

 

And in the United States, women are expected to go back to work

 

Six weeks later. If you have a massive surgery, you’re not going back 

 

To work six weeks later without really increasing your risk of complications. 

 

These become very cultural rather than just medical problems. 

 

The other big takeaway for me was they have somebody comes 

 

To the mom’s house. And say, “How’s it going,” and 

 

They hold the baby; they talk to the mom; and they make sure 

 

That she’s okay. We don’t have any of that. We have like,

 

“I gotta take my child to his or her pediatrician appointment,

 

Three times the first week that you’re home or something. And then

 

TI’ve got to get myself to another appointment without the baby. So

 

I’ve got to have somebody to help me.” And it’s like, the whole system falls apart.  

 

There’s actually a woman who’s doing a lot of really awesome work 

 

In North Carolina. And she basically figured out that she needs 

 

To have a clinic that sees moms and babies together, because 

 

Moms are much more likely to show up for their postpartum visits 

 

If it’s for the baby. So, it’s like if my baby has to go 

 

To the pediatrician then he’s not going to miss 

 

That appointment. I can miss mine, but he’s not going 

 

To miss his because he’s a baby. And so if you combine 

 

Those appointments, then you get to see mom too …

 

Richard Matthews  

Something really interesting about that. I run 

 

A supplement company on the side. We have female multivitamins for women,

 

We have men’s multivitamins, we have teens,  we have children, 

 

We have baby, We have prenatal. And just off the top of your head. 

 

Could you guess whether or not the prenatal vitamins or 

 

The women’s multivitamins outsell. Which one sells more?

 

100% because we have the hardest time getting women 

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

The prenatal for sure. 

 

Richard Matthews  

To buy multivitamins for themselves. They’ll buy the men’s multivitamins 

 

For their husband. And the teens multivitamins for their teens. 

 

And the kids multivitamins for their kids. And the prenatal multivitamins. 

 

When they’re pregnant, but they won’t buy their own. 

 

I’m not sure if that’s a cultural thing or 

 

It’s a way that women think about themselves. They don’t think 

 

About themselves until that they’re caring for someone else. 

 

It’s brilliant. It’s brilliant to bring in how do we get the; 

 

It’s the mom and the baby coming in for their appointment. 

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I think it’s that old analogy 

 

Or adage or whatever of when you’re on an airplane, 

 

You have to put your own oxygen mask on first, and then 

 

You put it on your kids. Because if you can’t breathe, 

 

You’re not going to be able to take care of your child. 

 

I use that a lot in our wellness centers, because at Prime, 

 

You often hear people say, “I don’t have time, I can’t.”

 

Well, if you’re not healthy, who’s going to take care of your kids?

 

If you want to be here for your kids, you’ve got 

 

To start taking care of yourself. And that’s hard for women. 

 

That’s really hard. Because it’s like, “This person needs this 

 

And this person needs that.” What about you? You need some stuff too.

 

Richard Matthews  

You need to take a break. Take care of yourself. 

 

I talk all the time in my entrepreneurial stuff with my clients 

 

Is you have to be healthy and fit to run your business. 

 

Or you’re not going to be able to run your business. It doesn’t matter 

 

If you make all the money and do all the things, if you die while you’re doing it.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

That’s right. That’s such a good reminder.

 

Because people also think like, “I just have to get all this stuff done.” 

 

I fall prey to that all the time. Like, “I just have to push through 

 

All of this and then I’ll be able to;” sometimes there 

 

Is no in that. You got to find a way to incorporate it into your day. 

 

Richard Matthews  

It’s a concept I teach regularly. I call it giving yourself 

 

Permission to play. And a lot of entrepreneurs 

 

Particularly suffer from this, and I think moms do too. Is the idea 

 

That I get all my work done, and I have earned my ability to play. 

 

My ability to relax and then the problem is we have so many things 

 

To do that we feel like we’ve never gotten them done. We never 

 

Take that time. Fundamentally it’s backwards. 

 

You cannot perform your best if you are not well rested, relaxed, 

 

And well taken care of. It’s foundational to your success 

 

And your other areas, is taking care of yourself.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I also think just from a creative perspective. Sometimes if 

 

I’m struggling about how to write something, or what 

 

Next project I want to take on. If I go and do something 

 

That seems totally separate. My husband 

 

Will joke that I like to paint walls. I’m not like painting masterpieces, 

 

But I’ll be like, “This should be blue, or we should make 

 

This green” or painting bathroom walls. And people are like, 

 

“Don’t you have so much going on? You have a lot. 

 

And you’re repainting your house? Pay somebody 

 

To do that, Emily. What are you doing?” And I’m like, it really helps me. 

 

It helps me sort my thoughts. Also, it feels like 

 

I’m accomplishing something when I’m feeling stuck. 

 

Does that make sense? I think everybody has to have 

 

Their own painting walls, or whatever you call it. 

 

Then be able to, I guess, afford to have somebody come 

 

And fix it for you when you do a terrible job. 

 

Sometimes being bored is the best way to stimulate ideas.

 

Richard Matthews  

One of the things that I do is I’ve realized that; we talked earlier 

 

That my desire to constantly learn things and once 

 

I figured it out on I’m bored. I have to, sometimes, move that 

 

Out of my business and put it into something else. So I’ll be like,

 

 I’m learning the piano, because it’s hard, and it’s difficult. 

 

It’s something that I can just scratch that itch 

 

In my head to have something hard that I’m trying to figure out. 

 

… learning to draw, and right now I’m going through 

 

A course I’m learning to code iPhone apps. 

 

I don’t have any need for those skills in my business or anything. 

 

For me, it’s that same thing. It’s painting walls. Scratching that itch 

 

And giving myself some other place to do things 

 

That aren’t related to my work.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

Right. Also, you’re still learning. I would say coding 

 

Is a little bit more intense than painting a wall. But I see the similarity 

 

And I just think that there’s so many different ways to have 

 

Output and we don’t think about it that way. We don’t 

 

Value downtime. And that’s too bad because I think some 

 

Of my best ideas have come when I’ve been really bored. 

 

When I haven’t been bored for a year or two, there’s a part of me 

 

That feels like I just need to shut everything down. Organize my house 

 

Or do whatever, because it’ll stimulate some new idea 

 

That I become really sort of obsessive about. 

 

It’s like a lot of entrepreneurs. I’m sure you’ve heard this before. 

 

But it’s like the idea of like, you are really in the trenches, and 

 

You’re like, “Go, go, go, go, go.” Then you’re like, 

 

“I really need a paycheck and health insurance.” I’m going to stop 

 

This project for a little bit and go work for a big corporation, 

 

Where I’ll make a lot of money, and I’ll have some flexibility 

 

And I’ll be done at five o’clock. I don’t know the last time I was 

 

Done at five o’clock. I put my kids to bed and often keep working. 

 

It’s like you need to have brakes, and I think there 

 

Are probably, I’m not sure anybody’s ever studied this, but I bet you 

 

There are cycles. People who are creative or people 

 

Who are entrepreneurial. I bet there are different categories. 

 

They go through periods where their output is huge. 

 

Then they need to store up their reserve again.

 

You know what I mean? I think it’s very hard to do that consistently.

 

Richard Matthews  

I have a metaphor I use for that exact thing. Most people 

 

Talk about, work-life balance, like it’s one of those legal scales 

 

That they’re trying to get them to equal out. 

 

I think it’s more like a rubber band. 

 

Sometimes you’re stretching that rubber band a lot and there’s only 

 

So far you can stretch a rubber band before it breaks, but it’s 

 

Really far. You can stretch a rubberbrand really far. You can put 

 

A lot of work in. Get a lot of dedication. Get a lot of output. 

 

When you release that, you’ll have a lot of forward momentum. 

 

You can have a lot of forward momentum from that work, but 

 

The state of the rubber band after you’ve done that is relaxed.

 

You need to have you need to have both. 

 

If you just always stretch, you’ll break the rubberband.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I love that. I’ve never heard that before. That’s great.

 

Richard Matthews  

That’s my metaphor for that. Helping entrepreneurs understand 

 

How you have to do both. You can’t just constantly work and 

 

You can’t just always be relaxed or you’ll never move forward.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I also think there’s something about knowing yourself. 

 

We talked on the podcast about knowing your body, but it’s also 

 

Knowing your mind. There was that big article that was in 

 

The New York Times and Wall Street Journal maybe a year ago 

 

About how Bezos’ works people to death. All these Amazon employees. 

 

And then he basically says, in any kind of senior level interview, 

 

“You better not have a life, because you’re gonna be here all the time.” 

 

There was such an interesting response to that. Because I feel, 

 

As a reporter, certainly. And as an entrepreneur, I’m always 

 

Thinking of ideas. I’m always thinking of new stories. 

 

I’m always thinking of who; at a party. I’m talking 

 

About work all the time for 20 years. But I think that’s a joy. 

 

I don’t think that that’s a problem. When I think 

 

Of work-life balance for me, things changed when I had kids, 

 

And I realized, they’re not so interested in my work. 

 

Sometimes they are. And I actually think it’s wonderful to

 

To talk to them about the things that we’re doing, because I think 

 

They’re curious, and they can relate to certain things. 

 

But I also think, it gives them license to ask questions.

 

Have that curiosity and that stake in things. But I also think 

 

That there’s something really important about

 

The idea that if you really love what you do, then 

 

The balance becomes a very different thing. You have 

 

To be able to maybe find time to paint a wall or be bored. 

 

But it’s not because you’re trying to escape your job. 

 

We had; a couple years ago went on a family vacation 

 

With a bunch of other families. It was a week-long vacation 

 

Then like Thursday, some of the other parents were like,

 

“I can’t believe the vacation was halfway through. And we have 

 

To go back to work on Monday.” My husband and I were both like, 

 

“We can’t wait to go back to work.” It’s really good 

 

To hang out with people. But I thought of 30 things that I want 

 

To write on this vacation, and I can’t concentrate. 

 

It’s really brainstorming, vacation is for me. Thinking; exploring in a way. 

 

Then regular work is more output. But it was so interesting 

 

To be like, “You’re spending most of your time doing 

 

Something that you hate, and living for the two weeks 

 

Of vacation you get every year. And when that’s over, it feels 

 

Like a funeral.” Because now you’re gonna have to wait 

 

A really long time again before you get to do the things 

 

That you like to do. Don’t do that. That’s a horrible way to live.

 

Richard Matthews  

I actually think that’s why people think our traveling lifestyle 

 

Is idyllic because they think it’s always vacation. 

 

Which is not true. But I get the idea and 

 

It’s interesting because I’m the same way. One of the things,

 

When we drive. I’m a marketer. I get paid to write and 

 

Get people to change their actions based on the words I say. 

 

That’s my thing. My wife and I, one of the games 

 

We play is we’re driving down the road and we pick apart 

 

The marketing messages on the billboards. Good, bad, indifferent. 

 

How could you improve it. Things like that. It’s just a fun exercise. 

 

For me, it’s work. That’s what my work is. 

 

But it’s a game we play on the road.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

Because you love your work. I think that’s what it means. 

 

It’s always on your mind, and 

 

You’re always trying to learn how to improve and 

 

Be better, or learn from other people. 

 

I think that’s obviously what the whole podcast is too, which is so fun. 

 

Jill is waving at me that we have to go. We have 

 

Another interview in a little bit.

 

Richard Matthews  

I have one more question for you. Actually, I’ve got two more questions, 

 

But one of them sort of irrelevant. You have a podcast. You have children. 

 

I’m curious if you’ve had the experience where your child 

 

Has realized that you have a YouTube show and you’re just 

 

As cool as the other people on YouTube. My son realized that recently 

 

And he was like, “You have a YouTube show. “And now he tells 

 

All of his friends. He’s like, “My dad’s on YouTube.”

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

We aren’t on YouTube yet. I haven’t had 

 

That privilege. But the kids do know that I have a podcast 

 

And they sometimes joke about it. 

 

I go on TV from time to time. Sometimes they see me on TV, 

 

And they’re like, “Mom, is that really you?” 

 

Richard Matthews  

Like, “Are you really famous?” 

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

It’s not my double … twin sister somewhere …

 

Richard Matthews  

Two quick questions for you. One of them is your guiding principles.

 

Top one or two principles or actions you put to use everyday 

 

In your business that you think have really helped contribute to your success.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

I think, I’m pretty impact driven. I always like to say to people 

 

Or say to myself: you want to always be proud of everything you do. 

 

I think the idea that when I decide to do anything, I want to feel like 

 

It’s contributing to something that’s going to help people. And 

 

That I’m going to look back on and feel proud of it. Which I guess is tough. 

 

I think everybody has their own internal sense of what 

 

They take pride in or what they feel like is meaningful. For me, that’s 

 

A litmus test that I use a lot to say: is this going 

 

To help somebody else? And will it make me feel good 

 

That I did it the way that I do it?

 

Richard Matthews  

Absolutely. So, impact is a top principle. I know this interview 

 

Went a little long, but really fascinating conversation. 

 

I even skipped a couple of my questions that we generally ask. 

 

Hopefully, my audience forgives me for that, but it’s really 

 

Fascinating conversation. Last thing for you. Where can people 

 

Find you if they want to listen to your podcast. What areas are

 

Your gyms in if they’re interested in coming to your gym and

 

They see that. Where can people do that?

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

The podcast you can find on https://empoweredhealthshow.com/ 

 

Our social medias are all basically around that. 

 

What is Instagram? https://www.instagram.com/empoweredhealthpod/ 

 

My Instagram is news not noise. Then we’re on Twitter but we’re not released.

 

I feel like Twitter’s just a lot of angry people. I’m sometimes 

 

On Twitter and then I take long breaks from Twitter 

 

Because I don’t think it’s always so productive. But you

 

Can follow us on there. Then Prime the gyms are at 

 

The website: https://www.myprimefitness.com/#come-on-in

 

They’re in the Boston suburbs, but you can also hopefully pretty soon 

 

We’re going to develop a curriculum that will be online 

 

For women who are not local. Definitely, if you go 

 

To https://empoweredhealthshow.com/ 

 

You’ll be able to sign up for our newsletter, which is where 

 

We’re going to notify you about all kinds of stuff.

 

I have two business books 

 

That are business advice books that are coming out in August 2020. 

 

We’ll definitely blast our newsletter list about those books 

 

And giveaways and stuff like that as we get closer to that drop date. 

 

That’s a good place. If you sign up for the newsletter 

 

We can send you; we also have tons of vendors that we’re going 

 

To start giving out as free product for people who are 

 

On that newsletter. Rather than taking money from them. 

 

We thought we would pass it on to our listeners.

 

Richard Matthews  

Awesome. So thank you so much for coming on 

 

The show today. It’s been a pleasure talking to you. If you are listening 

 

And you are interested in this stuff, definitely check out their show 

 

The Empowered Health Podcast. I assume you find it on iTunes. 

 

I’m probably going to subscribe to that … get my wife … It sounds really good.

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

Great.

 

Richard Matthews  

Do you have any final words of wisdom for our audience 

 

Before we hit the stop record button here?

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

No, I mean, I think the big takeaway for me after this hour 

 

And a half therapy session is really you got to find stuff that 

 

You really love to do and just ask lots of questions. Because 

 

You’re going to learn stuff about yourself and other people 

 

And engaging in the world is really I think the key to being happy.

 

Richard Matthews  

Absolutely. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

 

Appreciate it. 

 

Emily Kumler Kaplan  

Thanks for having me. It was a lot of fun.