Episode 039 – Matt Johnson
Welcome to another episode of The HERO Show. I am your host Richard Matthews, (@AKATheAlchemist) and you are listening to episode #39 with Matt Johnson – Withdrawing from the Popularity Race & Refocusing on the Impact & Value You Can Provide.
Matt is a marketer, entrepreneur, podcast expert, and musician. As founder of Pursuing Results, a podcast PR & production agency based in San Diego, Matt runs a worldwide virtual team helping business coaches and agencies break in and dominate their niche through podcasting.
Matt currently hosts niche business podcasts such as YouX and Real Estate Uncensored, and recently launched the Podcast Pitch Assistant training to help experts get pitched to podcasts consistently by their internal staff. He is a frequent podcast guest and event speaker to audiences around the US, Canada, and Australia.
Here’s just a taste of what we talked about today:
- Coming across podcasting through the real estate space.
- Working with the right type of person.
- Refocusing, as a business owner, to one question: “What is the one thing I sell to one type of person?”
- Autonomy, freedom, and entrepreneurship.
- Solving a problem in a scalable way.
- Time, financial freedom, and location freedom. Only a few people get all three.
- Focusing on the impact on clients instead of focusing on the goals.
- Naming the problem and know what it is.
- It’s important to lean in to our strengths and let go of our weaknesses.
- The business needs only three things from me: strategy, copywriting, project management.
- Marketing is a battleground of ideas.
- Words and Marketing can help people.
- If customers agree that you are providing value, what percentage do you deserve?
- Clients are people who are under the protection and care of another.
- Shifting the question. “How can I get this done?” to “Who can do this?”
- Working hard to never work again.
- We your best in short bursts and rest the rest of the time.
- Ego is the enemy.
- Giving every influencer and ally for attention.
- One of the recent bad trends is people prioritizing attention to the exclusion of everything else.
- Be visible but congruent and consistent with your status as an authority figure.
- Screw the weaknesses. Make the strength stronger.
- Having great systems for your company with good people.
- Giving yourself permission to play.
The HERO Challenge
Today on the show, Matt Johnson challenged Jeff Cohn to be a guest on The HERO Show. Matt thinks that Jeff is a fantastic interview because he has the attitude of being elite in every aspect of his life–this means he does not pour everything into work all the time. Matt thinks it’ll be fun to pick Jeff’s brain on his journey.
How To Stay Connected With Matt Johnson?
Want to stay connected with Matt? Please check out his social profiles below.
Call To Adventure
Don’t forget you can stay connected to me and the show by subscribing now. Just text ALCHEMY to 444999. Or you put your email address in the box at the bottom of this page. You’ll get all sorts of cool gifts, be updated about our contests and polls, and get notified when we publish new episodes. With that… let’s get to listen to the episode…
The Webinar Alchemy Workshop: https://richardmatthews.me/fs/waw-slf/
Hello and welcome back to the hero show.
My name is Richard Matthews.
I’m here on the line with Matt Johnson. How are you there?
I am here.
Glad to have you here.
So let me give you a quick introduction for you
And then we’ll get into your story and start talking.
See how it goes. So Matt Johnson is a marketer, entrepreneur,
Podcast expert and musician as founder of
Pursuing Results, a podcast PR and production agency
That’s based in San Diego. I got to go visit him down
In San Diego few months ago. You run a worldwide
Virtual team helping business coaches and agencies
Break into and dominate their niche through podcasting.
You currently host niche business podcast such as YouX
And Real Estate Uncensored and you recently launched
Podcast Pitch Assistant, which if you’ve been a guest on this show
You’ve been exposed to because Matt actually trained my staff
For the Podcast Pitch Assistant, which is really cool.
So anyways, thank you for coming on, Matt.
Let’s start off real quick with talking about who you are now.
What you’re known for. Why do people hire you?
Why did they come to Pursuing Results?
Cool. Well, first of all, thanks because – for having me on
And for the conversation stuff like that.
I always enjoy hanging out with you and our mutual friend Zach.
We always have a blast you coming down to San Diego.
I’m pretty sure we hung out down there for like four hours
And I got sunburned, hanging out in seaport village
Talking business. So I will take this conversation any day.
Okay. So the short story is four years ago, I was just some dude
Working at a digital agency that served real estate people.
And I got thrust into a position where I was doing webinars
With influencers in that space. So all of a sudden,
I was facilitating these conversations with super
High level people that I had conversations
I really had no business being a part of. However, one of those
People pitched me on starting a podcast together.
So we did, we didn’t really have a plan for it.
But that evolved into like running three live episodes a week.
That got me into producing and co-hosting other shows
In that space and working with really, really sharp successful
Business coaches. And so now that today, that’s who we serve.
So at one point, I was hosting a bunch of them,
I got out of that I really just host the ones that are my own.
And we produce podcasts for clients to help them build
Authority, visibility and relationships and attract
Their ideal clients. So we handle all the back end production.
So they just show up and do the fun bit,
Like what we’re doing here, having a conversation.
We do all the rest of the stuff.
Awesome. So let’s talk a little bit about what helped you
Get into this whole entrepreneur stuff. Because you said
You were actually an employee when you started.
So what was the origin story, I guess,
For becoming an entrepreneur, we’re talking every hero
Has an origin story where he started to realize
That you were different, that maybe you want to pursue
A different career. How did that happen?
Well, we, you and I have a lot of similarities because we both
Come from a religious doctrinal, theoretical background.
I did a short stint in Bible school than you did.
But we both have that going for us.
So flash forward several years later, after I kind of
Got out of that space. And I wasn’t chasing being
In the ministry anymore. I started a real estate team. Now I didn’t –
There’s certain aspects that I love, like the marketing,
The team building, and then everything else I hated.
So I shut down my real estate team in 0-7.
I went and chased the music career for five years. Taught myself
A bunch of stuff about marketing and web design and
Social media. Enough to be dangerous with marketing, but I didn’t
Really know a lot
To be dangerous.
You should have seen that WordPress site.
I’m sure it’s still up somewhere for that poor piano studio owner
In Denver that I worked for. But it’s, I was young
Enough to be dangerous. So five years ago, or something like that,
I decided to come off the road for a sales job, settle down,
Get a real job. And I found a position at an agency
That combine the two skill sets, which was real estate
And sales marketing. And so I became an account manager
For an agency that dealt almost exclusively with
Some of the top real estate agents in the country.
And when I got promoted into business development,
Their strategy was to build relationships with all the key influencers
In that space. Super smart, right ahead of his time really, really sharp.
They didn’t do podcasting, though.
It was through Google Hangouts back when
That was a thing that was cool and the …
When it actually existed.
Exactly. So that’s how I got started. So I don’t necessarily
Have a strong allegiance to podcasting, per se,
Because I actually started in live video. To me,
Podcasting is a way to get that content into the hands
Of people in a way that allows them to spend more time
With you because they don’t have to watch the video necessarily,
But all of our all my initial growth in my first podcast
Was on YouTube, at 1.2 thirds of our audience.
Were actually watching on YouTube not listening on iTunes.
So I’ve got kind of an odd – I came to podcasting through
Really weird, bouncing all over the place, kind of story.
The way that I ended up going independent was
I was working for the agency, and one of their guys pitch me
On starting the show. And the intent was
We were going to sell coaching, and I was going
To build training products, educational products.
So that’s why I left the agency was – that started to go
Really well. And I wanted to do more of that. So initially,
All the podcasts that I hosted were in that really,
Really small niche, real estate coaching to other agents
To help them become better business owners and entrepreneurs.
Everything I did was in that space. At one point,
I end up being in four different businesses that were all
Trying to capitalize on that audience that
We had built-in real estate, which I realized was the exact
Wrong approach. I was way off. So once I realized that
Was the wrong approach, and I kind of shifted things
I got myself out of all those businesses, all that other stuff
I was doing and just focused on the one thing,
Which is kind of how I that brings us up to where I’m at today
Where I’m just focusing on growing the agency.
That’s really interesting. So I mean, you’ve been all over the place
with what you’ve been doing. So what I’m curious about is
Like personally, the transition from being a –
If you’re familiar with Rich Dad, Poor Dad,
But a squadron employee to being an E quadrant employee,
To an S quadrant to eventually starting to build a team
And a system around it to that B quadrant?
How did that sort of that transition take place mentally,
And what is sort of some of the struggles that go along
With making that transition?
Well, I was very fortunate in that I came out of the job
At the agency and picked up a consulting gig.
Helping someone start their coaching consulting company,
And ended up having an equity stake in that company.
So that helped kind of bridge the gap. So that I wasn’t
In the freelance world because I got fired, or let go
Or something like that, to where I had to scramble
To take any clients that came. I was able to right away
Start working with the right type of person. And to this day,
That’s still one of the biggest success stories,
Is how we built that coaching consulting business and
Tied it indirectly to the podcast because I was there
On the ground floor and helped make those strategic decisions
And how that business was positioned in the market,
Which is what I’m really excited and to do.
And to help people do. So the transition was probably smoother
Than it was for some other people. The real tough thing came when-
By me taking the wrong approach to try to be
A self-employed person, and just the pain of getting into
So many different things. And then having to then refocus,
Get myself out of all that and refocus around one question,
Which was what’s the one thing I sell to one type of person.
Because I gotten essentially just off track.
So how did you know what was the thing that triggered
Knowing like, I’m going into many different directions.
And what I need to do is focus. What was the trigger for that?
The trigger was when I started to hate the meetings
With the other businesses, I was involved in.
When I started to feel like I came away from every meeting
With a to do list that was longer than everyone else’s.
Because all those businesses needed was its own rock
That had to be pushed up a hill, and everyone else was looking to me
To be the person pushing the rock up a hill,
While they just kind of gave strategic direction, insight, whatever,
I’m like, no, that’s not gonna work like that. I can’t push five rocks
At five different hills. So that was kind of the tipping point.
For a while there was exciting. You know, it’s fun.
In those early stages of a new adventure.
Like it’s all just nothing but ideas and speculation and fun.
Talking about the possibilities and stuff like that.
It’s when you get into the real work. And you realize,
Every single one of these little joint ventures is its own company.
It’s own baby that needs all the attention
That any other startup needs. That was really the tipping point.
It was when that dawned on me that every single one
Of these in order for it to actually work, had to have somebody’s
Full attention. It had to have somebody’s heart and soul.
And I couldn’t have my heart and soul split up in five different places.
And that’s where you sort of made the decision to focus on
One thing. When you’re looking at five different things like that,
What was the thing that made you choose what you’re doing
Versus the other other businesses?
Great question. A couple of things. So number one,
I knew enough about myself to know that I would probably
I had 100% control over. That’s not everyone. That’s me.
Only throw my energy into the thing that
And that you could even call that a dysfunction.
But I knew that I just I know myself
I’m that way.
And I think you’re probably the same way.
But if I if I was to step back and look at it objectively,
And if I could play nice in the sandbox with full on partners,
And all I wanted to do is just grow the biggest
Most successful business, I would have looked at it
A little bit differently. And I would have applied,
Probably like The Star Principle, right from Richard Koch’s stuff.
So which one is most likely to be the leader of a niche,
And that niche is growing at 10% a year.
And there was a couple of businesses that I was involved in
Where that there was a legitimate shot at that.
And in some cases still doing well. Of course, a couple of them
Didn’t get off the ground once I got out of it,
Because I was the one doing all the work.
You’re the one pushing the rock up the hill instead of …
Yes, exactly. They reset. They rolled back down to the bottom.
But for the other ones were the other guys stepped in
And like made sure that it there was still somebody pushing,
They did well, and they are growing and all that stuff.
So what I just realized was that in one case, for example,
I had a 10% equity stake in a coaching business with
Three other partners. So I was essentially a minority partner.
It was almost like having a – What do you call it?
Like a piece of the upside is what Jay Abraham would call it.
If you go in as a marketing consultant,
And you ask for a piece of the upside.
It’s very, very similar structure. What I realized that for me
To make $100,000 that I had to grow that business
Into a million dollar business, like right now just to make
Six figures on it, but I was already doing six figure quality work.
I’m like, Well, I can, if I’m going to getting 10% of the business,
And I don’t even get to determine what’s profit.
Because somebody else’s spending money that I can’t control,
Because I’m a minority partner, like, a note done out.
Got out of it gave up my equity totally.
So it’s just someone that my business coach told me,
It’s like, man, there’s so many ways to make a business
Say look unprofitable, even if it is. So if somebody else
Has an incentive to not make it look like there’s a lot of profit
In the business that needs to be split between other partners,
They will do it. And there’s a strong temptation to do that.
So anyway, point being I got out of all that stuff,
Partially because I just knew that where my mental and
Emotional energy would run to is always the thing that I had
The most control over so that I experienced 100%
Of the reward when it worked.
And how much of that goes into, like a desire
For one of the things I was thinking about recently
Is the difference between autonomy and freedom, right?
And the desire to have the autonomy, right? The self-direction
To do what you wanted to do when you want to do it
In your business. And otherwise?
It’s a good question, because I would tend
To consider them interchangeable. So I’d love to hear –
We’ll have to talk about your perspective on that.
Because now I’m curious. When I think about freedom,
And freedom is like if I sat down and did this exercise,
One time with a mentor of mine,
And freedom is my number one value. So it makes sense
That I run a virtual team, I don’t show up to an office,
I work out of my home and Starbucks, I live by the beach,
And everybody else is around the country.
And I’m saying like the whole design of my businesses,
It’s very obvious that freedom is my number one priority.
But that’s not to say like somebody else,
If they thought of freedom differently, they might find
More freedom and having a business partner that
Takes care of all the stuff they don’t want to do.
So they can just kind of be themselves.
So everyone has like a different perception of what freedom is.
So freedom versus autonomy. I don’t know.
I know I wanted to make-
That’s where my distinction is sort of come in. Is that difference?
Okay. So the autonomy is like, I get to be myself.
I get to do the things I want to do. And freedom is
Just the ability to those things. So, if we’ve talked
Monetary freedom, for instance, if I want to buy a yacht
And I don’t have the money to buy a yacht,
I don’t have the freedom to buy a yacht.
Have the autonomy, but not the freedom
I have the autonomy, I couldn’t buy a yacht
If I had the money. So there’s nothing holding me back from money.
Autonomy plus resources. Okay.
It’s freedom. It’s just something I’ve been
Noodling about trying to think of this.
I was gonna say, that’s a deep philosophical question.
There’s probably some really good work out there
By John Locke or something like that.
Something like that, difference from economy and freedom.
I was listening to a podcast the other day of another podcaster,
Ayn Rand was talking about a lot of people get into
Entrepreneurship get into business, seeking freedom,
When what they’re really looking for is autonomy.
And that’s what sort of sparked the question in my head.
And meaning, they’re looking for the ability to choose
Where they work, and what hours they work. And they think
That entrepreneurship is the answer to that.
And it’s not really I mean, it can’t be. But you can also
You can get that autonomy in specific job situations or
With specific, with other income means. So, anyway, this was
Sort of sparked the thought in my head was
What are people actually looking for? And what were you
Looking for? Were you looking really looking for –
You were looking to actually grow a business and
Make a difference with people?
What were you looking just specifically for the autonomy
And the business was this the method you got
That you use to get that.
Obviously, I want them both and I think I figured out kind of
What the gap is between those two, which is,
You have to be able to solve a big valuable problem
In a scalable way. And so once I kind of like, and I semi-knew that
From watching my mentor do that and create
A lifestyle of both autonomy and freedom by doing that.
So I had that kind of in my business DNA. And I knew that
That was a path I should probably go down, I guess.
It’s the best way to put it. But I definitely want to, I mean,
I want exponential freedom and impact, like I want time,
Freedom, financial freedom, and location freedom,
Which you almost always never get all three.
That’s very, very hard to do. And to me, it all comes from,
What kind of problem are you solving?
And how are you solving it? Because it’s one thing to find
A problem that’s not very valuable, that’ll never get you there.
You’ll never, you might have time freedom,
But you’ll never have financial freedom.
So you got to solve a valuable problem. But then you also
Have to do it in a way that’s scalable because otherwise
You’ll end up just locking yourself into a highly paid consultant job,
Which that’s no fun. I didn’t want that either.So I don’t know
Exactly when those things started to click, I would say that
The last year is when it coalesced into being able
To explain it that way. That’s when that’s when the ideas
Kind of – But the the germ of it was, was earlier than that.
So I kind of knew that my goal was to have that one thing
That I sold to one type of person, it just took me a while
To figure out what the one thing and the one person was.
It’s actually the – my business name being registered name
Is actually called Five freedoms is about those things.
So my – the five freedoms that I talked about is a political freedom,
Which we enjoy in the US. Spiritual freedom.
And then time, location and financial freedom.
And I think that a lot of people seek financial freedom,
When what they want is time or location freedom.
And it’s something like I realized along the journey
I talked about this a couple times on the show before. I had
An income goal that I wanted to hit because I was
Seeking financial freedom. And I thought that income goal
I had hit an income, I hit an income level that let me do
Was financial freedom. And realized along the way that
All the things I wanted to do.
And I was like, I just don’t care anymore about hitting
That income goal and started focusing instead on the impact.
The bigger problem.
That I was gonna serve people and then
Hit that income goal as a byproduct?
I like that approach. I think, even if you’re very
Economically driven which I think, both you and I, share that
In the sense that we’re not as economically driven
As we could be, we’re somewhere in the middle.
We’re not it’s not that we don’t care, we absolutely care.
But it’s not our highest priority. I think for people that –
If that’s you, if you listen to that goal.
That’s me, I’m in the same boat.
But even if you are, it’s still better to think about it from
The other person’s perspective. The person that you’re serving.
So flipping, it’s still a good mental exercise,
Even if you’re super economically driven, you’re like hard charging,
And you’re like, I’m going to be a millionaire. Great.
Still think of the other person first. Because that’s still
Just think of the value.
I still think of the value. So I think if we flip that around,
And our focus first is on the problem that we’re solving,
And who we solve it for, if we can get those two things right,
The rest of the stuff can flow. You can even pay someone
To make what you do scalable, and the less burdensome on you.
I’m saying, I mean, that’s part of what you do is help people
Take their the knowledge that’s trapped inside their head
That’s super, super high level and customized and put it
Into a form that’s not customized that can be sold,
And leverage and maximize and make a profit off
Without it having to be customized in
A one-on-one client relationship.
So, if you can just get a couple of things right all the rest
Of the stuff you can pay to have done.
And that’s sort of where I’m at in my businesses, I have to figure out
Who that person is and what the actual problem is.
And I’m working on like, narrowing that problem down.
And realizing that a lot of the things that I do
Fit into a specific problem, but I never really had that problem.
… This is the problem I’m solving. I solve all these little things.
And they all fit together into a bigger problem.
I’m just sort of getting to that point in my business where I’m
Okay, I know what the thing is that I’m helping people do.
And I think that’s gonna really help
Grow my business over the next year.
I agree. I have to percolate on that for a while.
So you have to name the problem. I like that.
I haven’t got there yet. But I think that’s the thing that’s holding
Me back because I figured, I mean, I need to know
What the problem is. So I can I know, we’ve talked about this before,
You don’t have children, I’ve got children.
One of the things that really fascinates me is like,
Children grow up without language. I have an infant right now.
She doesn’t say anything. She doesn’t know English.
And I always am curious, what does she think in her head?
Because like you and I, we think words. We think things.
So if you don’t have a language framework, what do you think?
What it like? What’s in your head, you have nothing
To grab on to nothing to do. So I have no idea what goes on
Inside of a baby’s head before they have language.
And I feel like that’s my businesses problem is like.
I don’t have a language to put around the problem that I solve.
And if I had, if I had the words, if I had a name for it,
It would be easier to think about and grasp and
Talk to others people about and identify it, if that makes sense.
I agree. I would also contend there’s plenty of adults
That also have that same problem, even though
They do speak English. But that is my personal humorous opinion.
But on a serious note, yes, you’re absolutely right.
And, yes, the naming of the problem.
There’s a really good book to check out.
Have you read Play Bigger by Chris Lochhead?
All right, he’s got a really good part in there,
Because part of what his consulting was to like
Tech firms in Silicon Valley, was to name not just their solution,
But to name the category. So it gives this example
Of a company in origami, which was like marketing,
Kind of analyzing what’s going on with your marketing.
So it would monitor all of your social media channels,
Your emails, and all this stuff that’s going out,
Just kind of check out the goal was to give you a dashboard
To see what’s going on with your marketing. Kind of broad,
Probably solves a lot of little different problems.
But what he helped them do is lead them through the process
To where they invented the category of, if a member, right,
Marketing signal measurement. So the problem was,
We can’t measure our marketing, and we have no –
We have all these signals coming in
That they’re just going nowhere, right?
We really don’t know how to analyze it.
And so this is he’s got some really good stuff in that book
About how do you name your category?
And I think that’s really what it is.
It’s not just the category, you’re actually naming the problem.
I think that’d I’m gonna have to actually –
After we get done with this, I’m gonna go back and
Reread that chapter because it’s really good.
And it’s sort of – It seems like you’re almost just past
That point in your business where you know who the person is,
And what the problem you’re solving isn’t
And how you’re going to solve it. I feel like I’m almost there.
Well, the name of the game is sacrifice.
That’s the toughest part. We were talking about this before.
We hit record, there’s the Gary V envy, which we want to be
Everything to everyone because we want to be that visible.
So we’re not willing to sacrifice the fantasy of being that.
And the other flip side of that is that even if we
Don’t have that fantasy of being like
The next Gary V, or Tony Robbins, we also have the fantasy
Of being able to serve a bunch of different people and
Do things and scratch our creative itch. The thing that
Set me free from that a little bit was –
It was in the business of expertise by David Baker.
He basically makes the point that look if you’re.
If you’re letting clients pay you to figure stuff out all the time,
You just got to know that you’re letting them pay you to dabble.
Which is actually –
I actually had a client that they were like,
I have this problem I want solved. And I was like
That problem’s never been solved before. And, they were like,
So what would you charge to solve it? And I was like,
I don’t know that I can. But if you want to pay me,
Here’s my rate to pay me pay me to play? And I will –
That’s the thing is you authentically told them
That’s exactly what’s going on.
If you want to pay me to play, it will probably take me three or
Four months to figure something out if I can.
It might not be solvable. And we solved a big problem for them
Over the course of that time. And they we’re very excited.
And I’ve used it in a lot of different ways now and helped
A lot of clients using that. But it was like realizing
The difference between innovation and implementation.
I implement. I let others innovate. And then I come in systematize.
And I want to implement and I want to implement
For the exact right person that I want to serve.
Phone, things that are already proven. So that, you and I
Are very different in that sense. I like to innovate on ideas.
I don’t like to innovate on tactics.
I like the innovation process. But like, what one of the things
That really, really drives me is I like to both figure out the thing
And then figure out how to systematized the thing.
That’s part of like, to me that’s like the innovation.
Once you can figure out how to make it so that it just happens,
Whether or not it’s people or robots or whatever,
That you just have a system that triggers things.
That I think to me, that’s part of the innovation.
And it was the thing I had to figure out for myself
Because I’m far more attracted to the innovation
And the implementation and realized if I never figured out
How to do the implementation, I would never make
Any money with anything. And I’m one of those people
That once, if something’s not clear, and I have to figure it out,
Like, that makes me happy. And then as soon
As I figured it out, then I don’t care anymore.
So I have to have a reason to care past having figured it out.
For me, that’s…
You gotta figure out how to care about implementation?
And that, for me, that’s making systems that other people
Can make those things happen. And I was like,
You mentioned being in the education space,
That was one of the things that I’ve noticed in the education space,
Is that you have a vast range of how good content is,
From stuff that is like, people who don’t really know
How to teach them things to people who are really,
Really good educators. And what I’ve noticed is that
People with a poorly put together education,
The people who are like freight trains,
People who just like to figure things out, innovate-
They can take that and have success.
And there’s enough of those people that you can get
Success stories and kind of enough people to buy your training.
And then like all the other people who buy your training
And never get results, or they think there’s problem with them.
And really, there’s a problem with training.
And then you have really good training where lots of people
Can get results. Tthere’s fewer of that.
There’s fewer – really, really good training materials
That are out there for people. But a larger segment
And one of the things I’ve noticed is if I get really, really
Helps a larger segment of people, like implement.
Good training from someone, I understand it, I don’t care.
Because I’m like, there’s nothing to figure out.
If I understand it quickly, then I just –
I have to have a reason to care. So that’s where
Building systems around, around the implementation is,
That’s the game I have to play with myself.
That’s so funny.
Make me …
I think it goes to show you that, ’cause I know you want to
Talk about like superpowers and stuff like that,
And how that relates to the businesses that we build.
That’s why I think it’s so important to lean into the stuff
That we’re really good at. And for the most part,
Find a way to let go of our weaknesses. Now you found out –
You felt, like in your particular case, you had a weakness
That you felt like was holding back your strength.
You couldn’t even monetize your –
The strength of figuring out something new.
Because the implementations that was holding you back,
Which I agree, but you’re also not working on to get better
At doing the mundane part of running the systems.
You hire people
I hire people for that.
There’s always, I think one of the hardest decisions we make
As business owners and entrepreneurs is
What strength do you maximize?
And to the exclusion of just not worrying
About those other weaknesses?
And what really is a weakness that has to be addressed
And turned into a strength.
That’s a really good point. Like how do you figure out
What is worth it. Worth putting effort into
Just like as an example, when I was a kid, I was very introverted.
Didn’t talk to strangers kind of thing. I did. I had like,
My two friends at school and that was it.
I didn’t talk to anyone else. And I remember very specifically,
Thinking at one point in my high school career, I was like,
If I’m ever going to have an influence on anyone,
I need to learn to talk to people. And recognizing that
As a weakness that I needed to turn into a strength,
And you know, nowadays – I went to preacher training.
And I got my college degree and I’ve probably spoken
Live in front of thousands upon thousands of people
Across my career now, because it’s something that
I wanted to make a strength, because I knew I needed to have that.
So, but on the same token, learning how to click all the buttons
On the Facebook-god-thing just drives me bonkers.
And it’ll always drives me bonkers. And I could get good at it.
But why? You can hire someone else to and I think,
Just thinking about that. And I think the reason
Or the difference is like, stuff that only you can do,
Versus stuff that anyone can do.
If learning to communicate when you talk to other people,
I can’t pay other people to talk to people for me.
So it’s like something like, I have to get better at it
Or I just don’t have that in my life.
Exactly. That’s one of those that, I mean, for sure.
The public speaking thing, I mean, it’s hard.
It’s hard to be a, let’s say, a writer, speak like writer, consultant type,
If you never speak. And part of getting good at speaking,
For example, is there’s the talking to people.
There’s the interpersonal part. And then there’s the part of
Just like being on stage and being comfortable talking to people.
If you’re on the introverted side, it helps a lot to force yourself
To speak because it also helps you, it forces you to clarify
Your thinking process, which is a very good thing.
It’s a lot of the same reason why it’s good to write a book,
Even if you don’t really plan to sell many copies or whatever,
Just the process will clarify things.
And that helps turn that into you know from a weakness into a strength.
If you’re introverted, and you’re not confident in exactly
What you’re going to say, you’re probably not going to feel
Super confident. But if you’re an introvert, and you do know
Exactly what you’re going to say because you’ve worked it out,
That makes it a lot easier and it gives you that confidence.
It gives you a lot of things I learned. One of the things I learned
In preacher training was the difference between
Someone who will get up and speak from a bullet point outline
Versus someone who will speak from a script.
And realized because I was introverted, like,
I can’t swing from the hip for a while, or I couldn’t.
So I would script my – Script the things that I wanted to speak
And memorize them. I memorized them to the point where
I could get up, and I just knew it backwards and forwards.
And it allowed me to be able to speak more from the hip.
To speak more freely. So you have to clarify your thinking
And really know and have confidence in what you want to say.
And it helps you move forward. So, but to your point, superpowers –
In your business, what would you say one of your superpowers is
That you know the things that you really help solve
For your clients that’s helped you grow your business
Help you get to where you are.
So I would say probably two and a half years ago,
I remember very clearly writing this on a read post it note,
In my place, the business only needs three things for me;
It was strategy, copywriting, project management.
So that was like the start of my quest to get everything else
Off of my plate in the business that wasn’t one of those three things.
I don’t remember what it was. What the catalyst was
For kind of that dawning on me. But it kind of hit me all of a sudden.
Like, “Hey, the business only needs three things”.
And it was kind of that thing of like,
“Hey, this is in my business right now.
These are the three things that actually
I’m the only one that can do them.”
Or, I significantly changed the outcome
when I step in and do them.”
It’s not that I didn’t have a writer, but I write differently.
It’s not that I didn’t have somebody who can manage projects,
But I’m the one that push, push, push until stuff got done
On my timetable. Now I’m in the business or at the point
In the business where it’s even less. I don’t do much
Of the project management anymore. Now the business really
Just needs strategy, copywriting and maybe visibility.
Consistent visibility for me, podcasting, getting interviewed,
Stuff like that. So it changes and morphs. But those are I would say
Those are my strength. Those are my superpowers.
What I would call them X factor’s is the things that
Some unique attribute ability or characteristic about you,
That makes you different so that when you step
Into something, you change the outcome.
So, of those three, which ones do you think are innate talent
Versus which ones are things or skills that you’ve developed?
Or a blend, thereof?
Well, the project management is definitely
A skill born out of necessity. It’s not something I enjoy.
Copywriting is closer to just a skill that I actually enjoy.
Like I will never not write, like I am a writer. The strategy thing.
What I think is interesting about both of our backgrounds
Coming from like constantly growing up playing with doctrine
And theology is that it’s nothing but a battleground of ideas.
What’s cool about that – that’s marketing.
Marketing is a background of ideas. That’s what I love
About marketing. So I didn’t realize, I didn’t realize years ago
That that’s why I was drawn to marketing but was funny as well,
That even while I was like, full on running towards being
In full time ministry, I was reading business books on the side.
Eighty-twenty rule, stuff like that. And the reason
I think, now I look back on it is that it was it was ideas.
I love playing with ideas, and I love pitting ideas
Against each other to see what’s right and what’s not. And to me-
What stands up.
So that to me, that’s the probably out of the superpowers
That you could say that I have. The strategic thinking,
I think is the one thing that’s tied most closely
To just natural innate ability is I grew up around a dad
Who was always studying, always reading, always thinking,
Debating theology. And so that was fun for me as a kid.
And so like, whatever natural talent there was,
Was also enhanced by being in an environment that valued that
And constantly reinforced it and put it to use, which I think
Probably was the way you grew up, too.
So you’re always always fighting for your ideas,
Playing devil’s advocate, I’m saying like trying to fit like
I look at things and see where things mismatch.
So if I look at something, and somebody says something
That contradicts what they believe, I spot it.
No, that doesn’t that doesn’t fit with that.
And I’m always in search for getting closer to the point
Where things line up and everything fits.
The only the only test for truth is consistency.
Not the only test there’s also results.
Yes, I want I do want things to be-
If something is not internally consistent. It bothers the hell out of me.
It just gives you the heebie jeebies. You’re like, “No!” get them …
It’s the same way I grew up. I convinced my parents
At some point in my life. I don’t remember what this was exactly.
But instead of sending me to Boys and Girls Club after school,
They should let me go to Barnes & Noble and I would
Sit in Barnes & Noble and read all the books I couldn’t afford to buy.
Wildly jealous. I had to go to the library like a common peasant.
Yes, like the arbor Kiyosaki his books,
Which I wanted to read at that point in my life.
They were all new until they weren’t in the library yet.
But I discovered like this whole huge section of Barnes & Noble
That’s just filled with books like that. And it’s really interesting
That whole battleground of ideas, the thing that fascinated me
And copywriting is how much power words have
About both ministry and about marketing today,
To change people’s actions? We’re having this battle,
Sort of, I don’t know, in our at least in our country about
Whether or not words hurt people, which I think is insane.
Because I don’t think words hurt people. They don’t cause
Physical harm to people. But words are our instruments
Of change, they’re tools. And it’s really, it’s endlessly fascinating
That if you string the right words together in the right order,
At the right time for the right person, you can change their life.
And that’s – it’s fascinating to me. Whether that is helping them
Get started on a diet or getting their podcast going,
Or helping them get their spiritual life in order.
Like, there’s so many things that happen,
And it’s always words and marketing that help people.
And one of the reasons why I’m a capitalist through and through
Is because it’s that value that we – if I’m providing value
To someone else and helping them solve problems
Then, we have that mutual exchange of goodness.
I agree. I’m a big fan. And specifically, I think there is a –
What would you call it a theoretical underpinning
That people need to understand about capitalism,
Which is that it really is the free exchange of two people
Deciding that that exchange is more valuable than
Whatever they have in their hand.
No one forces that to come together.
No one forces that exchange to be made. It is the ultimate
Expression of both autonomy and freedom. And so I think
We should absolutely take pride in this.
And this is something I struggle with a little bit coming from
The religious world into the business world that I think
We shouldn’t struggle with, especially in a free society
Where all of these exchanges are voluntary. We shouldn’t struggle
With are we profitably helping someone and
Profiting in the process because we should be getting more out of it.
They should feel like they’re getting the best end of the deal.
And we feel like we’re getting the bad like, both sides should feel
Like they got a great end of the deal. That’s the point,
If you didn’t believe that you wouldn’t have voluntarily
Entered into that to begin with.
No one volunteers for torture.
No. Exactly. And so I it took me a little bit to let go of the mindset
That business was somehow less than ministry,
Or there was somehow tainted, or that there was an issue with
Making more money because people that made more money
Were taking from other people like not in a free society.
If you live in some other form of society, maybe.
Feudalism, absolutely. If you were rich is because you own the land
And other people were working the land for you.
It’s not like that anymore. So I think now if we really understand
Capitalism better, it helps us run our businesses better because
We understand that what we get paid is a percentage of the value
That we’re delivering to the other person. And the only question is,
If they agree that we’re providing value, the only question is,
What percentage do we deserve?
And that’s one of the exercises I do with my children,
As we go around life, one of the things –
I call out for my son on time, because he’s pre-school, Swan Lake, capable of
understanding this at this point is like, what is this person doing?
And what’s the value to the world? And then how do you think
They get compensated for that? So everything from the guy
Who’s twirling signs on the corner, he’s providing the value
of a pole. Like a dancing pole, he probably gets compensated,
In that realm, and same thing, the waiter at your restaurant
Gets compensated for bringing your food and taking your order
And doing a good job with that, and getting tips like that.
And then like, what about the person who owns the restaurant?
What are they getting compensated for?
What’s the value they’re providing? And they’re serving a much
Larger group of people than the waiter is?
Because of, just business and the system that goes into it.
So it’s you get paid in direct proportion to the value you provide.
And I don’t know, it’s just it’s interesting this, how do you learn
To see the world in terms of value exchange?
It’s not it’s not easy, and it doesn’t come easily to most people.
That’s a great mental exercise. I’ve never heard of anybody …
And I’m probably going to steal that. And that’s probably how
I think now. I think one of the things that was the most helpful
For me was reading Jay Abraham’s book,
How To Get Everything You Can Out of All You’ve Got.
And he goes –
I haven’t read that book. I’ve heard it’s really good.
So good. The strategy of preeminence, like joint venture deals –
Anyway, point being, he really delved into like,
What is the soul of your business? Right. And, that’s also where
I picked it up the phrase, which is he calls nobody customers,
Or users, don’t ever say the word users around Jay Abraham.
You call them clients, because the word client means
Someone who is under the protection and care of another.
And that’s how you should treat everybody,
Even if you are just a SAS company, you should treat them as clients.
So that’s where I live. That’s where that kind of approach came from,
For me, which I think fits in very nicely with,
If you have a religious upbringing, or background or whatever,
And you care about what you’re doing
And the impact that you’re making. Treating everybody as if
They’re under your protection and care,
Does flip your your business mentality around from
Thinking constantly about what you want to get out of the business,
To more of what you’re contributing to other people,
Which I think ends up driving your own success anyway.
So you said something a couple of minutes ago,
That triggered another thought that I’m curious
If you would classify this as a superpower in your own life,
Is the ability to when someone says something, or believe something
Or thinks something to be able to take that to its absurd level.
Because when you take an idea to the extreme,
That’s really where you where you test them,
Whether or not they hold water, is that the extreme
And I feel like you’re the kind of person that as soon as
Someone says something or thinks something does something,
You’re like, here’s how that plays out if you take it all the way
This way or the other direction.
I think that’s probably true, I think because I think
If you debate ideas, that is one of the easiest ways to make it obvious
When something isn’t right, or to try to point out to somebody else,
How obvious is that it should be that it’s right or wrong,
Is to get carried out to the extremes. I’ve never thought about that.
That’s a good question. I can tell you this,
My sense of humor absolutely runs that way.
Which is to take to the absurdity. So, it must be something about
The way that my brain works. So maybe that is.
I never thought about it. But I would, maybe that is a superpower.
Well, I killed my camera. So, I have a backup camera.
Because, it’s been weird with a switch to the other camera.
Now. There we go. Either way,
I got camera.
You would have a backup camera.
Always have a backup camear? It’s not as clear as the other one.
But I do have it. So the other side of the superpowers is the fatal flaw.
So it’ll fly. Superman has his Kryptonite.
Batman is not actually a superhero. He is, he’s pretty cool.
What would you say something that you have in your business,
In your life, your personality that has held you back?
Or kept you from really succeeding the level you probably would
If you didn’t have that or struggle with it? And more importantly,
What have you done to sort of overcome it?
I definitely have started shifting the question that I asked myself from,
How can I get this done to who can do this?
So that’s probably the best answer to all of that. In the shortest
Possible way I can give it, which is I think my fatal flaw was
Way overestimating how much success came down to my
Own personal effort and productivity, and hustle.
And realizing that for the most part, that’s not true.
It’s actually way more about thinking, good decision making,
And building systems that are run by other people,
Which is a force for someone with just like a Puritan kind of work ethic
That the best way to get ahead is just
Put your head down and work harder.
That is my fatal flaw, I would say. It’s just my natural tendency is that
I have to constantly remind myself, don’t just step in and do it.
When it comes to training, when it comes to building systems,
When it comes to the bit whatever. Don’t just step in and do it.
Which, like it sounds like it’s a horrible job interview where, like,
“Oh, my fatal flaw is that I work too hard, and I care too much.
But when it comes to building wealth, that is a fatal flaw.”
It’s, who was that? It was von Clausewitz, the guy that wrote on War.
He said something to the effect that the officers that
You wanted to promote, were the lazy intelligent ones.
They were the ones that were fit for leadership.
The smart, industrious, hardworking ones, were only meant for middle,
Like officer status. He’s like, he’ll never rise above that.
That’s brilliant. And it’s something that I’ve had to change
In my own life to for my business, and I realized like, our friend Zach,
I was speaking with last night as like, one of the things
That I hold pretty dear to myself as an identity thing is like,
Nobody can compete with me because I will absolutely
Work you under a table. And I just I know that by myself after,
Twenty years of running businesses and doing these things
The phrase, ‘drink you under a table” means that I can continue
To drink before long before you passed out from being drunk.
So, work you under a table is like, long before you’ve like died,
I will still be going. But the problem that I realized,
That I was having in my business was that as a massive bottleneck,
If you apply that to your own labor, and how –
Because I’ve only got, even if I did work every waking moment
Of my life, and never slept, I still only have 24 hours in the day.
And the moment that I bring on someone else, and now
I have doubled my labor capacity, and that leverage is
So much more powerful. So I had to for myself,
The … and I do it versus how can I have someone else do it?
That was a game changing question for you?
And for me, it was asking myself, basically,
I had to hire someone full time. Because the question
I was asking myself is, is it worth it to hire someone?
Or is it worth it for me to do it? And I was making like a value judgment.
And I always won out because it’s cheaper to hire myself.
And I can get it done faster, exactly the way that I want it done.
And that was a huge bottleneck. And I had to make that shift
To – I’m paying this person. Now my question is not
Should I do it myself? Or should I hire someone? The question is,
How can I fill their time with the work that needs to get done?
How can I get something off my plate and on the there’s.
And that changed, it changed the game for me
And realize that now I can take that effort of being willing
To work someone to the table. I call it being aggressively lazy, now.
I will work really, really hard. Really hard.
So I never have to work again. So I will build robots, I will build systems,
I will hire people, I will train people, I will work you under a table
To build a Leverage System. It’s like our conversation
A little bit earlier. How do you turn something that’s
A weakness into a strength?
There’s a great line, I’m a huge fan of scrubs,
I used to follow asleep to it every night, back in the day.
There’s a great line where somebody who’s given a hard time
About something he’s like, What I have a new exercise program
Is called short bursts. And that’s what I thought of when
You’re talking about that. Because the game is to to be your best
In very short bursts, and then rest and relax and read and think
And all that stuff. It’s the Warren Buffett approach to success
Is what I would call it. I love his schedule and his approach to things.
What’s funny is, I was talking to a client here a couple weeks ago,
And he just threw out a couple of book recommendations.
And I didn’t think much of it. So I just ordered them
Right off the bat and send them to me. So one shows up.
It’s called, As Many Reps as Possible. And it’s not like
How to squeeze the most out of every minute of every day.
I haven’t cracked it since I saw the cover.
To me, that’s not the wealth building game.
That’s the high performance game if you want to be
A highly paid sales person. And if you’re sitting on the couch
Right now, you might need that mentality to get you up off your couch
And just doing anything, which was probably
What the book was for. But I think for those of us that are –
That have a business where it can be scaled or has any shot
At scaling. Like that’s not the challenge anymore.
The challeng is in how to squeeze the most
Out of every minute of every day. And I think that
The search for that is actually counterproductive.
To me, right now the search is how do I create
The right environment, the right systems, where I can plug in
The right people to where they run hard and I don’t have to.
And one of the things Zach said to me a while back
That really unlocked things for me, was one of the questions
You should ask yourself is not how do you get as much
Out of every minute of the day? But how do I put in an hour
And get 10 hours back? And that’s really, it’s the game
We’re playing and as your business grows, I assume that’s going
To be how do I put an hour and get 100 hours back or
Put in an hour and get 1000 hours back? Because just bringing it
To the absurd. And if you look at – if Tim Cook puts in an hour,
How much effort happens in the company? For apple?
It’s probably millions of hours.
I think … about decision making and strategy
And it’s how do you apply that type of thinking
To a business that’s my size? And how do you – and anyways,
I think that’s a – it’s a really important skill and like transition
To make when it comes to figuring out your fatal flaw and
Actually making some changes for your business.
Because it’s- I’ve grown my business like four X
Since I made that shift. So I mean, that’s powerful.
I’m gonna talk a little bit about your common enemy.
So common enemy is, I like to think of it in terms of your clients.
When you bring on a client, they have mindset,
They have things that are going on. Something that you know
If you could just wave your magic wand and remove this
From their thinking that you would able to skyrocket
Their results faster, or better. If they weren’t being held back
By this, what would you say that is in your business?
Is it Gary V envy.
It’s Gary V envy. It is it totally is. It is. That’s what it is.
ego is the enemy.
When it comes to influencers, ego is a double edged sword,
Because it’s the thing that propels us to become an influencer.
And it’s the very thing they’ll hold you back from actually
Being influential if you let it. You know. So I think
There is like anything else, there’s good and bad too.
It’s like fire, you can use it to drive you and build a fire that
Heats the house or can burn it down. It just depends on
The level when when I get on with somebody,
And I’ve only talked to them two times for a grand total
Of 10 minutes in two conversations. And in both
Those conversations, they found a way to shoehorn the fact
That they’ve sold Leonardo DiCaprio house, not interested.
I’m already out, don’t care. Not interested in working with you.
Because that to me like the quest to be Gary Vee,
The next Gary Vee is more about us than it is about the audience.
Because what we have to understand about the audience
Is that they want a solution that’s tailored to them, for the most part,
Unless you become a legit celebrity to the point where it’s
A status symbol to work with you, which is why
People continue to pay Tony Robbins for coachin.
So unless it’s a status symbol to work with you,
Unless you can reach a level of celebrity to where
It’s a status symbol to work with you, then people want
People would rather have a solution or a service or an influencer
That’s just tailored right to them. So it’s a lot easier.
And I think better for the audience to come out and say,
“Hey, I don’t serve all these other people I serve you.”
I understand your problem is such a deep, intimate, specific level
That I have a different, more effective solution to that problem,
Because I understand your problem better than anybody else.
How do you say that to everybody? Well, you can’t, right?
So the whole split to me, like specialization, is like a current of a river.
And going out there and delivering a general message
To a whole bunch of different people just because
You want to be the next Gary V. is like
Swimming up against the current. A few rare people do it.
Everybody else gets swept down river. So for me Gary V
Has had as much as I might like him on a personal level,
I think he seems to be a good dude, he might not spend
A lot of time with his family, but he doesn’t seem
To be a bad person. But the practical effect of his status
Is that I have bought, I have people coming to me for podcasting,
Because they want to be the next Gary V. And the negative
Is I have people coming to me for podcasting because
They want to be the next Gary V. So I have to shift them over
And get them to realize that, “Hey, let’s set that fantasy
Aside for a while. And let’s zero in on the people
That you want to serve an impact and let’s tailor –
Let’s figure out what your clear and compelling idea is
That will cut right through the noise.
Instead of trying to just contribute to the noise by saying
The same thing that everybody else is and just try
To say it more often. To me that’s … strategy.
And one of the things that I’ve noticed because I work
With clients on lots of different industries, is you realize –
Gary V is big. He’s big in a general. He really is like,
On the various piles of people. There are people you’ve never
Heard of that have humongous influence in their space.
And like everything from early childhood education.
One of the clients I’ve worked with for a while she’s like the top
Of the top for early childhood educators like in the world.
And she gets flown around to countries all over the the place
To speak about early childhood education, and thousands
Upon thousands upon thousands of teachers all over the world,
Flocked to her events and tour things. And she’s got a humongous
Level of influence for early childhood educators.
She’s the Gary V of early childhood education.
And I guarantee you if I said her name, you wouldn’t know it.
And I think that that’s the disconnect is people think
They want to be Gary V because everyone knows their name.
And you don’t need everyone to know your name.
You need your people to know your name.
All the goal is the goal should be I should say,
For influencers especially,
To be famously influential to exactly the people
That you want to serve and impact. And if other people ever
Come along for the ride, and know who you are
Outside of that group, it’s gravy.
And it goes back to that whole, who you’re speaking to thing,
One of the preacher training lessons we got in college
Was really simple. And it was the idea that if you speak
To a group of people and you ask someone in the audience,
Look them in the eye and you ask them a question,
Have them not respond, and then just ask the audience
Who did I ask that question to raise your hand?
The person that you asked, and the huge circle
Around them will all raise their hand?
You asked me that question, because you were talking
To someone specific. If you repeat the process,
And you look in between two peoples, you’re not actually looking
At someone in the eyes and ask the question,
And then ask the audience who you ask the question to?
No one will raise their hands, because you weren’t speaking
To anyone specific. And it’s just an eye contact thing.
But there’s some psychological stuff that goes into that into –
When you’re actually speaking to a specific person,
Other people will come along for the ride to your point,
But you have your person and the people who are around them,
Who are close to them, if you’re in Facebook, the lookalike audience.
They’ll dive with your message. They’ll get in. That’s how you get
A larger audience.
That’s really interesting. I think of the same thing when it comes to
The first follower. If you remember that YouTube video,
Like one guy gets up in a crowd of people and starts dancing.
The only way a group of people will follow him
Is somebody has to be the first person to get up and follow.
And that it’s kind of that same thing. It’s you have to be able
To get somebody to raise their hand and say, “Oh, my God, that’s me.
You’re talking about me.” And then other people go,
“No, no, that’s me, too. I have that problem.” If nobody stands,
If the first person doesn’t stand up and say,
“You’re talking right to me, you’re you’re solving my
Big valuable problem. Let’s pull the trigger and go.”
If you can’t get that person to say yes,
Then, the group of people around them
Aren’t going to say yes, either. So the more specific,
I think that’s a great example of the more specific we get,
The more enthusiasm we can generate from one type of person.
They’re going to send us referrals, and we’re going to get
Spillover into other niches. I mean, I do.
I don’t only produce podcast for real estate business coaches,
That brought in investor coaches, people in infinite banking,
Just like these kind of mortgage infinite, interrelated or adjacent,
I should say industries, but I didn’t actually target
Any of those industries. I didn’t go after mortgage coaches.
All it all came from just speaking really, really deeply to one niche.
And then the spillover effect got me clients in those other niches.
Absolutely. So move on to talk about the opposite side of
The common enemy, right? If Gary V envy is the common enemy.
So I bought the driving force if if Gary V envy is what
You fight against, what is it that you fight for?
Spider Man fight to save New York. Batman fights to save Gotham.
Google fights to index all the world’s information and spy on us.
What is it that you fight for?
I want every influencer to have an ally in the battle for attention.
So my big thing is, I don’t want to just produce podcasts.
I want to help people who have something to say,
Actually delivered into the hands of the people
That it’s most helpful to. And so the big change
That I want to make is I don’t want to just produce podcast,
I want to raise up a whole army of people that are working
For influencers all over the world, doing a few things.
Getting them featured on podcasts, producing their podcasts,
For the expert. And then splitting all that stuff up
Into short form content to go out in sales support
And on social media. So my vision of the world is that
Every business influencer like a coach or consultant or whatever,
Has a person on their team who is their ally
In the battle for attention. That person does nothing but
Run their new media machine, get them featured on podcast,
Host their show, split it up into micro content.
And if you have a bigger team than that,
If you end up needing more people to do more stuff, great.
Gary V has 19 people on his personal brand content team.
I don’t think most of us will ever need 19 people.
But I do think we most of us need one person. So that’s the change
That I would like to see, I think we need to stop doing it all ourselves.
And we don’t need a lot of high priced agencies
Out there doing it for us, I think for the most part
With the right training and equipment, somebody can do
Most of this stuff in-house. And then we can selectively work
With agencies and experts to set the strategy and
Make the changes that will make things more effective,
And then just keep going.
So he said something I want you to expand upon a little bit
Just because I think people will miss it, “the battle for attention.”
And I firmly believe right now that what we’re looking at
Is we’re looking at the – In order to make sales. In order to continue
To have the free exchange of ideas and the the free exchange of value
From one to the other. You have to you have to get attention
Before you get sales. And without attention,
You don’t get sales on the problem is attention.
How you get attention has drastically changed
In the last decade. And I’m curious, your thoughts on sort of
That transition and where we’re at now.
What you think the future of attention is?
Well, I think the practical effect of Gary V is that we have
Prioritized attention to the exclusion of everything else.
Almost like we’re a circus that blows in and out of town.
And any publicity is good publicity, like the old PT Barnum quote,
Or whatever. The problem is, we’re not that –
As influencers, that’s not us. We are not a circus. All good news.
All news is not good news. If we are not visible in a way
That’s consistent and congruent with our status
As an authority figure, that attention doesn’t help us.
So carrying it to the absurd. So if you put a niche business coach
Or a consultant, and you put them on a reality TV show.
Are they going to get some visibility and exposure out of it?
Absolutely. Does that mean people are going to flock to you
For your core service? Maybe not, maybe if you’re on,
If you were on The Apprentice back in the day, and you
Were positioned as an authority in your field,
Maybe people would have reached out to you for what you did.
But if you just get on a random reality show,
If you just end up on Survivor. Does that really,
That’s all kinds of attention. It’s all kinds of visibility.
All kinds of exposure, no sales. And that’s just an
Exaggerated version of what we do every day
Chasing attention on social media, by doing things like
Sharing what we’re doing in our day, and just all this
Random stuff, basically just trying to be opportunistic,
And capitalize on opportunities to be visible. The problem is,
We’re not being visible in ways that really create any demand
Or authority or relationships or anything like that.
So I think the future but I think, when it gets down
To the future of attention, I think it’s the fact that
We have chased for about the last 10 years, just attention f
For its own sake. And we’re realizing that attention for its own sake,
Doesn’t build successful businesses. Only consistent
Congruent attention, build successful businesses.
So now the challenge is how do you attract attention
In a way that’s authentic, and still positions you as an authority.
And one of the one of the things that I’ve been, –
Since social media came on to the ground, so to speak.
The whole attention for attention take is like, I’m out eating dinner,
Here’s a picture of my food. It’s like the quintessential
Attention for attention sake, nobody cares
What you’re eating the reality. It’s just not a –
Maybe some people care. But most people
Don’t care what you’re eating. And trying to figure out –
We know everyone has a megaphone. And I think for the last 10 years,
Everyone has just been trying to figure out how loud
They should yell and which direction they should point it.
And I think where we’re getting to is we’re getting to,
You realize that you have to use your megaphone, strategically.
You don’t need to yell about everything that’s going on in your life.
And you don’t need to yell it to everyone.
And because that’s not effective for your business.
And it’s like one of the things that always sort of,
I don’t know, turn me off about social media,
I don’t I’m not a huge fan of it, despite being someone
Who helps people with social media a lot. I travel all the time
And do cool things with my kids and my family.
And I frequently, people are like, what are you doing?
And they asked me to post more on social media and
And I probably like less than one 10th of the … that we do
Actually gets posted onto my page specifically for people
Who are following my travel.
Because I’m just like, I just don’t care enough. Whether or not
You care of what I’m doing. And trying to figure out how
That translates into business of like,
You need to know what your message is and
Where you can find them. And then use the megaphone effectively
Because you can point it in the right direction,
If that makes sense. And I think you’re absolutely spot on that.
Figuring out how to use the attention. How to use the specific
To how to grow that audience and then how to importantly
Stop the attention game and move on to the value game.
How do I – We have that exchange of value because
To the point with the whole Gary V envy. I can’t even
Really articulate to you what his business does.
Because I don’t know. I don’t know what he-
What problem he solves for people. So he’s got a lot of attention.
And I don’t know how that translates into solving
Problems for people because I don’t know his business that well.
I think probably most people don’t. And I think what we need to
Get really good at is how do you turn the attention
Into providing value to people like actually getting the business done.
And enemies? I think that’s sort of where we’re going.
I think what Gary V sells is an entrepreneurship lifestyle,
That other people want to have, which is why it works for him
To share his videos of him in the back of a cab
Looking like a homeless person that got beat up,
On his way to an airport to fly out to another speaking gig.
Because he’s selling a lifestyle to a bunch of entrepreneurs
That want to live the life, but he doesn’t actually
Make a lot of money off of that. That’s how Gary V sells.
Gary V sells speaking engagements to those people, maybe.
I’m saying that what really makes his money is
Often being on media, which is taking all the following,
All the attention that we give him on social platforms.
He monetizes that by going to fortune 500 companies
And saying, “Hey, I know how to do this stuff.
And I can do it for you too.” So we got to realize that what Gary V
Does is he’s selling, he’s using us to sell to fortune 500 companies.
That’s where the real money comes from. So taking what he does,
And trying to use it to sell real estate coaching.
You know what I’m saying and then imitating everything
That he’s doing, thinking that it works.
You understand, he’s playing a completely different game.
So, I think that’s it. There’s a lot to say about that but
We’re gonna have a whole podcast just on that.
I know. I hate to go down that path because
There’s probably really nothing wrong with him.
It’s how we perceive the message.
So I want to be very clear about that.
There’s nothing wrong with him. It’s how we perceive it
And how we internalize it. And it’s the Gary V envy.
You hit the nail on the head. It’s the Gary V envy.
That’s the problem. Ego is the enemy.
Music is by http://purplanet.com/
So I want to get into one last question here,
Which is your own personal heroes. So Frodo had Gandalf.
Luke had Obi Wan. Robert Kiyosaki and his ich dad.
Were they speakers or authors? Were they peers who
Were just a few years ahead of you? And how important were they
To what you’ve accomplished in your business so far?
Who were some of your heroes? Were they real life mentors?
So I’ll give you two, they were huge instrumental.
So one is the guy that founded the agency that
I used to work for. Still one of my best friends.
One of the most grounded entrepreneurs I’ve ever met.
He’s not in mastermind groups, you will not hear- he runs one,
But he’s not part of other people’s. He, you will not find him
Trying to chase the latest, greatest anything.
He’s one of like, he’s one of those people that’s so refreshing
To go and talk to because he’s so strategically insightful.
But doesn’t get caught up in the entrepreneurial rat race
Of always having to build 10 x his business.
So I appreciate that perspective. And then he’s also
One of the most systematic thinkers that I know,
And systems builders. And I appreciate that.
So we connect a lot on that. So I love talking to him about that.
And he’s really, the agency that he’s built.
Selling one thing to one person is always a model that I look to
And steal stuff from for my own agency. So that’s number one.
Number two is one of my clients, Jeff Cohn, who I started that-
I was a partner in his coaching, consulting business for a while.
And he is a guy who built a seven figure real estate business,
Which most people think of as insanely labor intensive.
And he systematized and streamlined that thing
To where he runs a million dollar business in one day a week.
It’s actually less than that he probably runs it
In two or three meetings a week, if you can believe that.
So that gives him the freedom to do a bunch of other stuff.
But that really, that was also kind of in my DNA.
He was my first consulting client. So, I really got to
Roll my sleeves up and help him build a layer,
Coaching, consulting business on top of that,
That initial business that he built. And like being around those guys.
It just, it changes everything. Of course, the books that I read,
I read a ton. And then I could point out, five or 10 mentors there.
But those are the first two. Those are the ones
That I would say are the most impactful.
Do you ever feel like the people, who like Jeff Cohn,
Who run a seven figure business with just like one or
Two meetings a week, that they have some sort of magical power
You don’t quite understand yet? I’ve thought that in myself.
What are they doing? What magic power do they have
That they’re running this huge ship
With just a few words couple times a week?
You know, once I got around it, no. I said that’s part of
What helped so much was getting around it.
Because from the outside in, it’s tempting to think
That way. But then you get around and you realize,
There’s definitely strengths. And there’s also massive weaknesses.
So one of the things that I picked up from both of them was
Screw the weaknesses, just make the strength stronger.
But I also realized that it’s about building systems
And plugging in the right people. And then the rest of us
Just lead generation. If you have those three things,
If you have lead generation people in systems, that’s all you need.
From there, it’s all academic and leadership.
From there, it’s just kind of always developing a leader.
So though that’s what I kind of picked up from those two guys
Is the challenge is always leads systems and then people.
Which one do you think is the hardest for entrepreneurs to nail down?
Strangely enough, I think it’s systems. Because there’s
A lot of entrepreneurs that are good at generating leads.
And by force of personality, they actually tend
To attract good people. The problem that those people have
Is that when they come into that entrepreneurs business,
There’s not enough systems. And so they are expected to
Just kind of be that freight train, like you mentioned.
That just kind of gets in and goes, and there’s very few of those.
And they’re rare, and they’re valuable. So if you find one,
Pay them because they’re worth it. But most people aren’t that.
So I think we’re most entrepreneurs fall down is that
We’ve kind of figured out how to generate leads.
And we can go out and we can find good people.
The problem is what do we do when we plug them in?
What are we plugging them into? So that’s where I’ve tried
To build my business up as much as I possibly can.
I want to plug good people into really great systems,
So that my business doesn’t depend on great people.
If I find superstars, great! I don’t want the business to depend
On me having superstars I want to have rock star systems,
So that I can plug good people. And that was one
Of the best things I picked up from Jeff Cohn,
Is that he didn’t want superstar agents on his team.
He wanted great systems, good people.
Because good people are far more -what do you call it?
There’s more of them. And they’re easier to find.
And they’ll stick around, they’re, they’re not so focused
On doing their own thing, that they’re only going to stay
With you for six months while they build their next rocket ship
Or whatever. So there. I mean, theres’ nothing wrong with
Having rock stars in your business. But most of the time
They’re short lived. It’s the people that stick around longer,
And plug into your systems and do a good job
That really should be the foundation of the business.
Absolutely. So let’s bring it home for our listeners.
What are the top one or two principles or actions
Do you use every day that contributs success to your business?
One that maybe you wish you would have when you started out?
A better daily routine. So I wish I’d started out with that.
So I only work from seven to noon. And then everything after that
Is essentially optional. That’s helped a lot. …my days out
And not stacking calls up first thing Monday morning.
So my actual meetings to run the agency is
Actually Tuesday mornings. So I don’t get Sunday night dread.
Because Monday is actually oftentimes a writing day.
It’s a writing thinking strictly, like strategy day.
So that’s helped a lot. I wish I would have done that
Right out of the gate. Here’s why I wish I would have
Started that right away way because if I had restricted
Myself to something like that, I wouldn’t have gotten into
Four different businesses at one time to begin with.
I would have been much more selective about what I did.
And it would have forced me to start building systems earlier.
So actually, they’re like, if you think about it,
If you restrict yourself to not working
More than 30 or 40 hours a week, right off the bat.
You may look at that and go,
“Oh, there’s no way you can get business off the ground
Working 30 hours a week.” I disagree. I think I absolutely could
Have got my business off the ground faster if would’ve
Restricted myself to only working 30 hours a week,
Because it would have forced me to immediately
Focus on what’s more important.
I think one of the things that helped me grow my business
Was when I made the commitment to go
From 180 hours a week to 20.
A Hundred and eighty? Did I hear that correctly?
I’m exaggerating a bit. But I remember, at one point
In my business career, I was working like 12 hours,
Twelve to eighteen hours a day. That’s what you had to do.
And when I made it was a couple years ago,
I made the conscious decision, I was like I want my business
To be able to be run in 20 hours a week from me
That it was a huge shift. And you find yourself getting distracted,
Less pulled in less directions. It’s easier to pick
Just one person to do one thing and all those things
Are good things for your business. And I’m artificially restricting
With how much time I allowed myself to spend on my business.
And like there’s other benefits to that. You get more time
To spend with your wife and your kids and do the things
That you like to do, which makes you better
When you’re working. The whole idea, talked a little bit
Aabout a permission to play, giving yourself permission to play.
And I think a lot of times, if you haven’t hit your goals,
A lot of entrepreneurs, we struggle with this idea that we
Should have rest and relaxation.
We don’t give ourselves permission to play and
We’re like, I want to hit my next goal. And if I spend
The next eight hours of today, I spent my eight hours working,
I spend next eight hours by spending and doing fun things
That I’m not striving for my goal, I’m giving up
On myself kind of thing. And I think a lot of people
Struggle with that. And I wish I could –
That’s the thing I wish I could help people with
Is how can you give entrepreneurs permission to play?
Because I think that would help so many people
Grow their business, if they could restrict your hours,
Learn how to build great systems because with the great systems
And plugging in good people, you can really reduce
The amount of time it takes to run your business.
I couldn’t agree more.
Cool. Well, that pretty much wraps up the interview.
I do have one other thing that I do with all of my guests.
I call it the Hero Challenge. Hero Challenge is really simple.
You have someone in your life or in your network
Who you think has a really good story to tell. Who are they?
First names are fine. And why do you think they should
Come on and share their story with our with our guests?
Who? Do I have to give it to me right now?
I think Jeff Cohn should do the show. Why?
Because he is that person that even though he started
More businesses, he’s cut his working hours a little bit
Has made the effort to spend time with his with kids and
Really has the attitude of being elite in every aspect of his life,
Which means you can’t pour everything into work all the time.
So really focusing on I think he’d be fun to pick his brain
On his journey, and how he’s really focused on building
Those systems along the way, that allows him to do
The other fun things like traveling do some,
The things that he didn’t allow himself to do
In the first couple of years of real estate. So I think he’d be good.
Awesome. So we’ll reach out later and see if we can get
Our contact details for him. Last thing, thank you
For being on the show today, man. Where can people find you
If they are interested in looking at pursuing results
Or building a podcast. And I guess, more importantly,
Who are the ideal people to reach out.
So the ideal people to reach out are business coaches,
Consultants that have real expertise,
Can solve real problems for clients, and
You want to be a recognized leader in a lucrative niche.
So that’s you, I love to talk.
So you can go to http://pursuingresults.com/
You can check out our service there, you can schedule a call
And all that fun stuff. And then, if you are maybe
Not quite ready to look at launching your show,
But you know that you want to get featured.
And if you got interviewed on more podcasts,
You’d pick up more clients, which is absolutely true.
You and I both experienced that.
Just go to http://howtogetfeatured.com
Because you can check out the training.
So Richard, you mentioned that I essentially trained your assistant,
What I did is he went through that training
On how to get you featured. And then we just had
A quick follow up call. And I showed him how to use
That exact same system to just
Inbound book all of your guests on your podcast.
And the next thing he reaches out and says,
“Hey, six months worth of guests are booked”
Okay, awesome. Great. So that’s the system is to get you featured.
And so that’s kind of how that connection was made.
But you can check that out at http://howtogetfeatured.com
And if I can plug that little bit. He just mentioned,
My assistant went through that training. And his name is Mark.
Mark is excellent. And I love having him on the team.
And just what has happened in my business
As a result of that is that, I’ve got it set. So we’re trying to get on,
I think one to two podcasts a month that I’m guesting on.
And that’s happening consistently whether or not there’s-
It’s happening all the time, which is great.
And we’re trying to get at least four guests a month for our show.
And that has gone so well that we actually had to increase
Our release rate for our show, we’re actually doing eight
Shows a month now instead of four because of
How well that has gone.
So the how to get featured training is fantastic.
And if you’re looking out for that, definitely pick that up.
And you know, if you’re looking for getting a podcast going
Definitely reach out to Matt. I know we’ve talked a lot offline
About what it is that you do and what you’re doing
For your your clients. Really smart stuff.
I look forward to your book that’s coming out shortly.
I know that’s a that’s on the way. So keep an eye out
For that when it comes. Is there any final thoughts
You have for our guests? For our listeners? You’re the guest.
Do I have any final thoughts for your listeners?
Well, they should reach out to you first of all.
You’re one of the sharpest people that I know in –
How coaches and consultants can market and
Find the right people who should be buying
Their training courses and leverage up that way
To actually like put your pack your your expertise into a package
That is scalable and sellable. I don’t know if anybody else
That there’s not many people that I would trust that like
That I send my clients to, which I do,
When they need that sort of thing. So I guess that would be
My advice is you gave me a lovely plug and I’ll give you
Another because then it’s not just the fact that we’re friends.
We’re friends because we were –
We met because you’re good at what you do not vice versa.
Absolutely. Thank you very much for that.
So thank you for coming on the show. It’s been a pleasure
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